Author Topic: Bring on the 88 !!  (Read 1455 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Bring on the 88 !!
« on: April 15, 2007, 06:47:15 PM »







 Now that the importance of armoured-assaults have reached new heights in AH2, the addition of the dual-purpose 88mm Flak will bring about a very interesting variable to the ground war.  The German 88mm FlaK was one of the most successful pieces of equipment devised by either sides of the war, and every where Germans went you would definately find 88mm batteries with them.


 The 88mm, towed by lightly armoured vehicles, will become one of the most potent and devastating lines of defense against hostile aircrafts, especially low-flying bombers and attackers, near the town and airfield.

 The 88mm flak, is deadly and accurate enough to become the bane of jabo aircraft when used in large numbers, with a firing rate of 15~20 rounds per minute. Not only that, but the dual-purpose 88mm can also be used as terrifying anti-tank weapon, delivering a 9kg armour-piercing shell at 800m/s and achieving more than 100mm penetration at 2000yards (Flak37). A third purpose can be found in the MA, as conventional artillery equipment, able to hit enemy fields and towns from long ranges.


 This would become an interesting, and much needed addition to AH because;


1. It will provide a very powerful line of aerial defense

 While the intensity of ack fire has been increased considerably, the ack reaches only as far as 10k feet altitude. It is also relatively weak and effectless to stop planes on their pass, and this has often led to near-suicidal low-level jabos and attacks on airfields ranging from individual fighter planes to heavy bombers. Also, the AI flak is almost useless in defensive purposes, when it comes to the probability of actually preventing high-flying enemy aircraft from approaching an important target.

 The existence of the 88mm as an AA weapon changes that. While it may not be effective as only a single unit, if enough people can set up 88mm defenses at an important field/base they must hold, then the airspace will be massively fortified with FlaK barrages. Just pushing in more people in an unthoughtful raw display of suicidal jabo, will be met heavy casualties and fast rates of aircraft losses - which will dramatically reduce the effectiveness of brute power in terms of numbers. It will also help educate the mentally-challenged buff pilots who think using their buffs as bloated jabos is a good idea.


2. It will provide a very powerful line of ground defense

 The 88mm is also used as a powerful anti-tank weapon. Using the tow trucks to achieve mobility, people can tow their 88mm FlaK to key locations such as the approach path to town, and perhaps even cleverly place them at hedge openings or hull-down locations to form a formiddable line of anti-tank defense.

 As a result, brute strength of vehicle numbers will not be able to penetrate a position guarded by 88mms. Since the Flak itself, and the towing vehicle is vulnerable to attack, penetration of the anti-tank defense line will require dedicated air strikes which can quickly respond to requests from GV drivers to knock out 88mm batteries.


3. It will be the show-stopper for any possible 'too uber' tank debates

 The introduction of the M4 Firefly has seen a huge ruckus, as some people are very pleased with it, while others are severely frustrated at how the all-round capable M4 and its most powerful main gun has effectively ruined the show for people who like other tanks.

 Instead of perking something, or taking the time and effort to change something, or introducing a new tank to counter the effects of any alleged 'uber' tank that might show up in the future - just give the people the 88mm.

 No tank beats the 88. If some new tank might be considered too powerful - that's fine. Someone can always think of a combined assault featuring the 88mm as a tank detroyer.

 The 88mm will become the ultimate equalizer.


4. The existence and use of 88mms, may bring out a whole new groundwar

 The existence of 88mms, have some interesting implications.

 the players, with the help of the 88mms, may now be able to actually set up a real 'front' on ground level. Imagine a GV spawn point which does not directly end up near an airfield or town, but rather, somewhere in between two airfields (something that may be simular to the 'tanktown' concept). Perhaps there could be VHs placed there.

 To discourage enemy armor advancement, some people will bring in 88mms and set them up in a location where they can clearly see enemy tanks approaching. If one person sets an 88mm up, knowing that concentration of 88mms are more effective, it is likely someone else will also bring a 88mm and set it up near him.

 In this manner, a quickly concentration of 88mm batteries are formed. Since these 88mms are able to knock out tanks from very long distances, with their penetrating power and fast fire rates, other supporting vehicles such as M3s or M8s will naturally gather around the 88mms. AA vehicles like M16s and Osties will also choose to gather around the gaggle of 88mms.. and voila...!

 A real, live, AH "front" is formed... our "frontline", protected by our 88mms and AA vehicles, and the enemy front, protected by their 88mms and AA vehicles.

 The 88mms will provide anti-tank fire and AA fire, while the Osties and M16s provide small-arms protective fire. The 88mm will also act as conventional artillery - and this means the 88mms on both sides will be placed at a distance apart from each other where it won't be hit by conventionaly artillery fire. Therefore, a 'defensive line' for both parties now form.

 With the 88mm bateries behind them friendly tanks will advance and try to break through enemy lines, while the enemy tanks will also try the same. A massive ground-war will ensue, which if the two forces are in a deadlock, will necessiate the use of variety of attack aircraft to disable enemy batteries and fronts. The possibilities are limitless with 88mms in action.

 ...

 Ofcourse, there would be a need to suppress the 'uberness' of these multi-purpose weapons. For instance, loading/setting down the 88mm from the towing vehicle would need obviously need a certain amount of time to accomplish.. maybe two minutes or so?

 Also, there would be a need to put in some time delay between exchanging shells/modes - ie) an anti-tank 88mm can't just instantly begin shooting at a flying target nearby... maybe 1 minute time required between changing from anti-tank/anti-aircraft/conventional artillery modes...

 
 All in all,

 I seriously think that if AH sees the use of mobile 88mm FlaK, it's going to greatly enhance the game experience. With the introduction of the new terrains and Shermans, I think this is a great opportunity for HTC to sneak in this historically important piece of equipment in the game.


 Give us the B-25, as elected, but give us also the 88mm FlaK, with it!!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 06:52:46 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Meatwad

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2007, 07:48:00 PM »
Yes!!!!!


Gimme the 88
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Offline MWL

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2007, 10:39:48 PM »
Greetings,

  Make it the Nashorn.  SP AT 88mm with very, very, almost non-existant Armor.  (think Marder on steroids....)  Heck the Marder or Stug would be cool!

Regards,

Offline tedrbr

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2007, 01:03:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MWL
Make it the Nashorn.  SP AT 88mm with very, very, almost non-existant Armor.  (think Marder on steroids....)  Heck the Marder or Stug would be cool!
 


Nashorn and Hornisse combined only produced 494 of these tank destroyers, but more than just numbers, I can think of a few reasons why a Nashorn would not be as fun, useful, versatile, or effective in the game as the FlaK would be.

* Gun had a limited traverse and elevation: 15° to either side and between -5° to +15° elevation.  That's a pretty narrow field of fire.  Only useful for covering alleys of approach... setting up a kill zone.

* No AA ability, which is one of the strengths of the FlaK36 addition.

* No long range indirect artillery ability with only 15° elevation, which is one of the strengths of the FlaK36 addition.

* AFAIK, Nashorn did not make use of smoke rounds, which the FlaK36 did, and would allow the deployment of smoke screens in game.

Nashorn would be very limited in ability.  It's meant to cover an avenue of approach and destroy anything that enters it's narrow kill zone.  Tank destroyers are defensive units, cheaper to produce than turreted tanks.

Offline tedrbr

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Re: Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2007, 01:19:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Of course, there would be a need to suppress the 'uberness' of these multi-purpose weapons. For instance, loading/setting down the 88mm from the towing vehicle would need obviously need a certain amount of time to accomplish.. maybe two minutes or so?

Also, there would be a need to put in some time delay between exchanging shells/modes - ie) an anti-tank 88mm can't just instantly begin shooting at a flying target nearby... maybe 1 minute time required between changing from anti-tank/anti-aircraft/conventional artillery modes...


1 to 2 minute is a very long delay, for this game.  You can reload a plane in 30 seconds on a rearm pad, and you can instantly repair and rearm GV's with vehicle supplies.  And in 1 minute, that incoming bomber has dropped and is outgoing.  Considering the scramble time from bomber sighting to spawning in the VH and deploying, such a delay makes the FlaK36 almost useless in field defense.

If the "dug in" mode of a FlaK36 included sandbags (with a little more protection, than say travel mode) and some sort of camo cover, then I could see a 20 to 30 second delay.  If it was simply a switch from travel mode to firing mode, 5 to 10 seconds would be more appropriate.

Switching shells in GV's is instantaneous now (once reloaded), so I don't see where changing that for a FlaK36 matters.  I'd drop that one altogether.  The ammo count and load out options would be the big one.  How many AA rounds?  How many AP rounds?  How many HE rounds?  How many smoke rounds?  What ammo mixes available?  What's the total round count in the caisson?

The AA rounds used a timer, not a proxy fuse.  FlaK36's in AA role were used en mass, with a central fire director (with range finders, radar, and such) giving the guns the target's altitude, speed, direction, with which to calculate the timer.  The end effect is the same, so using the existing code from the proxy fuse in puffy ack or the 5-inch gun would produce the same effect.  Otherwise, how do you give the gunner the info to set the timer on the fuse properly?

Travel mode in a FlaK36 would be slow.  These would not be as easy to get around as an M3 or LVT.  Between mobility issues and weak skin, I think those help negate any "uber-ness" in a FlaK36.

A deployed 88mm FlaK36 would be a pretty stable gun platform, compared to tanks in game.  With field artillery binoculars, it would have a pretty good sight as compared to tanks as well.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 01:37:56 AM by tedrbr »

Offline tedrbr

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2007, 12:30:48 PM »
Additional issues.

Traverse speed of the gun.  I'm not altogether certain, but I don't think the 88mm of the FlaK36 could traverse that fast, so close in fighters and vehicles would be very difficult to track and maintain a sight picture on.   Yet another reason not to worry about switching between rounds on the fly, like they do with other GV's now.

Tow vehicle and trailer.  Game code does not support that now.  Either the two would be treated as separate and connected vehicles, or would stay in-line at all times (not the best visual) and would handle like a long bus.  In any case, you stand a much bigger chance at getting hung up on the terrain in the game with tractor-trailer arrangement.

Offline JB88

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2007, 04:55:51 PM »
oh...THAT 88.

nevermind.

:cool:
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Offline Barnes828

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2007, 05:32:17 PM »
should make it a manned ack on the field for anti air and gv defense. should make it similar to the single 5 inch gun.

Offline scottydawg

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2007, 06:34:56 PM »
I'm kinda diggin' those mags on the 88.  They're pretty bling.

Offline MOIL

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2007, 02:51:32 AM »
Yes,  the 88 would make a superb addt'n to the game IMO.

Along with this..........




Offline JB88

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2007, 06:22:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MOIL
Yes,  the 88 would make a superb addt'n to the game IMO.



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Offline bozon

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2007, 07:59:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Barnes828
should make it a manned ack on the field for anti air and gv defense. should make it similar to the single 5 inch gun.

Yes. Base acks are useless against tanks and I'm sick of them rolling into the base and hiding in indestructable objects.
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Offline SKurj

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2007, 08:20:55 AM »
I'd settle for something like the 5" on ships which also does double duty vs GV's

But a fixed manned gun added to current fields

Offline Kweassa

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2007, 09:26:30 AM »
There are reasons why I want the 88, than something else.

 First one is obviously the given mobility, being towed by a vehicle. It allows you to set up the 88 at the spot you want, instead of being placed somewhere obvious where any jabo plane can immediately knock it out on its first pass.

 Being able to move around is crucial for its role as an AT weapon, where the player can choose to deploy at the field, at the town, someway between the town-GV spawn, under terrain cover, and etc etc.. If it just stays as a static field gun, then it'd be pretty useless, since the first target a suicidal jabo would go after would be the field gun, not to mention it is also limited in numbers. Also, how would a field gun be able to stop enemy tanks inbound to the town?

 If it is a player-spawned GV, as in the towed 88, then it could be used en-masse, according to how much people are willing to up it, not to mention towed around to a favorable, perhaps concealed position.

 The second reason is that the 88 plays a multi-role. It is an AA gun as well as an AT gun, and a conventional artillery piece at the same time. When placed at fields, it can help strengthen the airfield defense. When placed at hull-down locations or any clever terrain features such as hedge openings or shacks, barns, forests, etc... it becomes a deadly anti-tank defense line. Also, if someone spawns near enemy base with it, it becomes an artillery piece, being able to knock down towns and field objects.

 The third reason is the historicty and representativeness. While both the Axis and Allied came up with excellent field guns for use, the 88 is perhaps the most famous and successful one.



Quote
1 to 2 minute is a very long delay, for this game. You can reload a plane in 30 seconds on a rearm pad, and you can instantly repair and rearm GV's with vehicle supplies. And in 1 minute, that incoming bomber has dropped and is outgoing. Considering the scramble time from bomber sighting to spawning in the VH and deploying, such a delay makes the FlaK36 almost useless in field defense.


 Frankly, the delay time IMO is necessary to make the 88 used as a weapon of anticipated defense. By "anticipated defense", I mean a defense where the person using the 88 has anticipated enemy attack in certain method and form, and made preparations to counter it prior to the attack - this is unlike the immediate 'scramble' type of defense where you see enemy planes buzzing around an already devasteated, where you just pull out the 88 and use it as an anti-vulch machine.

 The M16 and the Ostwind is already there for such use. I am imagining the 88 as a different type of weapon.

 This also applies to AT usage as well. I don' t think it's a good idea for a towing vehicle to drive around, see a enemy tank and instantly deploy the gun at AT mode, fire away, kill it, and then move on again. I'm imagining it to be a static weapon deployed to form a concrete defense line, rather than become a 'cavalry' in the ground war.

 Therefore, I think the delay time is needed.


Quote
Switching shells in GV's is instantaneous now (once reloaded), so I don't see where changing that for a FlaK36 matters. I'd drop that one altogether. The ammo count and load out options would be the big one. How many AA rounds? How many AP rounds? How many HE rounds? How many smoke rounds? What ammo mixes available? What's the total round count in the caisson?

 
 Perhaps you are right about this one. I suggested a delay time between "AA mode" and "AT mode", because I don't know what kind of gun traverse/aiming speed the 88 has. Unlike the 5" ship guns, which are confined to the vessel, the 88 is a mobile weapon. I was thinking perhaps it might be too powerful if someone could deploy the 88, beging shooting at tanks, see a plane approaching and then instantly begin shooting at it. Wouldn't it be impregnable if the 88 was that good?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 09:31:18 AM by Kweassa »

Offline WMDnow

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Bring on the 88 !!
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2007, 02:15:35 PM »
WE GOTTA HAVE 88!