Stick a fork in me too......

[Badger]

Hello everyone.....

Well, to borrow weazel's phrase, stick a fork in me as I'm done too.      

I'm not canceling my account as yet, but I'm taking some time away from AH until I can get a clearer view as to HTC's vision of what this product is supposed to be.  I left a separate thread asking "who is the customer?" in order to get some feel from your guys as to whether maybe you knew something I didn't.  Most replies were predictable, ranging from no constructive comments to the suggestions to set-up various skill arenas such as iEN does with WB and finally, the most interesting from weazel.  He attempted to address this problem of an MA trying to cater to all tastes by breaking up a map into various countries with historic plane sets and a furballing area in the middle.  It was thought provoking, but I'm not sure if it's executable.

The final straw for me was yesterday afternoon.  I ended up with 6 "bad guys" (various aircraft types) chasing the old Badger down from co-alt 25k, while their countrymen were dying in droves at A2.  I couldn't believe the feeding frenzy as all six of them at once blew huge altitude advantages just to chase one lone nikki all over the arena, completely oblivious to any strategic or realism aspect of the game.  Now before you ask, this bunch are a well known international squad on AH, so this wasn't a crew of "newbies".  I said to myself afterwards this is not what I'm here to enjoy, but it's their $29.95 as well, so they can fly anyway they wish to.  As a result, I logged off and went over to WB and ended up meeting -vadr- and his JG2 squad in the European theatre arena.  He asked me if I'd fly "bad guy" for his squad to practice ACM on.  I said sure and since he has CM (Community Manager) arena privileges, he set up the arena to show ICONS at D10 (NO Range, just aircraft type), then range pops up on the ICONS at D3.  All I can say is I had the best, most exhilarating virtual combat flying I've experienced in weeks.  We had historical match-ups of Spit 9's against 190a4's.  We had awesome 15-25 minute hand sweating engagements, each side trying to maintain and get the edge with their side's individual aircraft advantages.  The A4's protected whatever alt E advantage they could, while the Spit 9 drivers tried to draw them downward to run out of air for diving escapes and into a T&B environment.  There was some fabulous wingman work and my adrenaline level was pumped up incredibly.  Even my wife commented that I seemed to be having the most fun in some time.

After it was over, I began to think about why was this particular session so much more enjoyable for me over the AH time I had just left.  It wasn't the graphics as I fly both in 1024x768, but I do prefer AH's terrain, 3D cockpit and general graphics better than the current WB.  It wasn't even the flight model, since both of these are just games and as a real pilot working on an aerobatics endorsement, I find they both fly differently on the joystick, but neither is absolutely like true flight.  It really simply came down to the quality and maturity of the pilots I was flying against, the historical match up of aircraft and the ICON reduction with no radar.  These last three things created an element of realism that forced me to practice great SA, pay attention to every ACM move and think think think think think in real time under pressure, about whatever inherent advantage my aircraft had as opposed to the "bad guy", plus where his plane's weaknesses were.

I am really tired of an MA here in AH, even with v1.03 coming that tries to combine a pre-puberty "quake bird" bunch, score mongering "gang bangers", newbies who ask "what is a rudder?", then mix in old guys like myself looking for much more historical realism and a crowd perhaps a little older.  I especially want to fly with an entire group of guys with the knowledge base like FunkedUp, who has forgotten more about aircraft than I'll ever know.  I learn a lot from asking these guys questions and seeing their interaction helping others on-line.  Unfortunately, the Channel 100 buffer is filled so much with "kiddie" nonsense and "free" sign-up AH bashers, so that it's almost impossible for me to read between the typed lines to catch what they're trying to say.

I have NO expectations for Pyro or HT to change the MA to suit my personal tastes.  Pyro said:

"Everybody wants the game fashioned to suit their playing style, but that's not possible. The one frustration that only a player can fix himself is learning how to not get thrown off their game by other people's playing styles. If the only way you can enjoy the game is to have everybody else play it exactly the way you want them to, you'll never have fun."

I disagree.  This is about good product design, packaging and service delivery, that creates an environment that maximizes revenue and reaches the broadest market segment.  The current AH product and service is awesome, I love it, however, the packaging is really missing the point.  It's not currently pleasing many customers at either end of the entertainment needs spectrum.  It kind of reminds of the situation where they package hot dog wieners 12 to a package, but put the hot dog buns into shrink wrapped bags of 8.  Why do they do that?

In my personal opinion, HTC needs to create a beta arena, pick some players on here who can maintain objectivity about what's workable and not, then experiment a bit with some other options to see what gets the best bang for the buck.  Other companies in everything from detergent to cars test market their product designs on a consumer base, therefore, I don't see why HTC would be any different, except they choose to handle this internally.  I know that Hitech and Pyro are a pair of the smartest guys in flight sims I've ever met and I have the utmost respect and admiration in what they've accomplished so far, but I think they're missing a major element of product packaging that will ultimately hurt their ability to generate critical mass revenues.

My decision has nothing to do with the F4Uc!!!!!!  I don't know what all the fuss is about as I find them just another plane with certain advantages that you learn to adapt to and counter if they're your opponent.  I simply tell my mind that they have a D1.5 gun range and fly accordingly attempting no HO's against them.  I actually find them reasonably easy to kill except when "torque" is driving one, but he's an awesome driver in any aircraft.

I thank you all for your graciousness when you've flown with this old Badger and I look forward to getting airborne again, when and if, HTC is able to address this dilemma.  Unfortunately, I don't have any definitive answers for them, but the present approach is wandering in the wilderness too much, so I wish them great luck in figuring it out so I can return with enthusiasm.  I think the answer lays in some kind of handicapping (like golf) for newbies and in a distinctly separate arena for hard core types, but I don't know unless it was beta tested.

With no apologies to anyone, I am a hard core realism based simulation gamer.  Where can I find that if not here?

Salute to you all.

Best Regards,
Badger


[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-15-2000).]

[Cobra]

Hey Badger,
A couple of nights a week, the Musketeers try to get a no icon, historical thing going in the TA.  Drop by sometime, its a blast.

We've mainly done Spit V's vs. 109F4's but are thinking about other match-ups.

If you ever fly Rooks, look us up in the MA, we'd be happy to wing with ya.

Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille

[Torque]

Bummer  

The beginning of anything there is always chaos and sometimes utter chaos. I’m glad that HTC did released AH earlier rather than wait another year forcing me to fly WB(from what I remember about WB IAS and ALT mean nothing there). Dach hope to see you back when things develop more, it’s just a matter of time.


[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-15-2000).]

[Rude]

Hiyas Badger!

First question is, are you in a squad?

If your not, then you might consider joinin one. I cannot speak to how other sqds conduct their business, but I can say that the 13th TAS flys well together and we fly as you described regarding your WB's experience. We are not perfect, but we have fun, which is important

One more thing...try and remember that this sim is only months old....perhaps given some time you might be suprised

Just a thought

Rude Out!

[Dinger]

Badger, I hear you.
The biggest issue for me is the icons and in-flight map with counters and radar dots.  It's ridiculous, and encourages the lack of disciplined flying that leads to all the problems you've mentioned (gang-banging, ridiculous blowing of alt).
For me, the problem with the "iEN Arena solution" is that currently, there aren't enough players to support more than one arena.
The problem with trying to attract the "subserious gamer" crowd is that currently AH doesn't (IMO) have the feature/planeset to compete.  In the future, maybe.
Finally, the problem with what we have now is, as you said, newbies get frustrated, and vets just don't get what they're looking for.  Squad or not, it's hard to coordinate with people on your side.  Some want to win the war, some definitely do not (want a reset), some have the wrong idea of how to go about it, and others just don't care.
Still, it's young, and I'm hoping it improves with the addition of CM tools and regularly scheduled, officially sanctioned events.
I'm still hoping to see it go mission-based one of these days  

[Jochen]

 

I am really tired of an MA here in AH, even with v1.03 coming that tries to combine a pre-puberty "quake bird" bunch, score mongering "gang bangers", newbies who ask "what is a rudder?", then mix in old guys like myself looking for much more historical realism and a crowd perhaps a little older.

For me it seems that AH has bigger portion of Quakebird bunch than WB has. It is understandably when you consider the pricing.

 

I especially want to fly with an entire group of guys with the knowledge base like FunkedUp, who has forgotten more about aircraft than I'll ever know.

Same here, I fly historically and I like studying history and planes. Good chat with someone like funked is more satisfying than killing some dweeb who don't know how to fly in his -1C.

 

It really simply came down to the quality and maturity of the pilots I was flying against, the historical match up of aircraft and the ICON reduction with no radar.

Sadly, I agree that AH has more pilots that I dislike when compared to time I spend in WB...

In one year in WB I was shot in my chute just once and it was honest accident. In few months in AH, I have been shot in my chute three times. Never in WB did I see Ju 52 ditching when they saw me coming to them. In AH I have seen C-47 dithcing three times when he saw me from far.

In AGW, funked has posted more than 4400 posts and usually he has a point. In this board you see people spamming threads with nonsense while they are trying to reach 1500 posts.

In WB trainers try to express their opinions in constructive way even in difficult times, not threatening to leave or close their accounts. Well, I think they have free accounts but you shoud get my point.

AH is superior in technical sense and from that point of view, AH offers very good value for money. But when you take other content (scenarios, pilot maturity) to equation things are as good as they could be.

I don't know if there is enough pilots to justify several simultaneous arenas. But I do know that there are very different needs for different pilots and seems like they cannot be fulfilled with just one arena. Hardcore realism fanatics don't mix well with quakebirders!

------------------
jochen Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' Aces High
jochen Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen'  Warbirds

Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!

Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes

[Pongo]

Badger on the F4u1c
"I simply tell my mind that they have a D1.5 gun range and fly accordingly attempting no HO's against them. "

That perfectly sums up how I feel about the 1c in the game. But that is bad. It pulls me out of my imersion. A big part of what I pay for is the fantasy that I could have acctually done this in WW2 with some kind of success. When I get yanked out of WW2 by the 1c, I really dont like it.
It only seems to have a d 1.1 range when you fly it.... But they will get it worked out....
Badger
The rather recent ability to close a field was a MAJOR change to the game. For the first 3 weeks after the change I didnt have clue what was going on.  It will take HTC a bit of time to get a handle on the implications and refinments implied in all our comments and arguments. You have contibuted some excellent observations and ideas to the game.
Dont you want to see then come to fruition?
The game will not suddenly be "Bagers AH" or "Pongos AH" it will still be pyros AH. But the guy listens and decides and implements what he can while still moving the plane set ahead with a very limited but capable staff.
Nothing could be harder to do then strat changes. The play balance fluctuations take a lot of watching to decide on success or failure. It will improve.

Icons..
Does anyone here think that Pyro and HT wouldnt love a game with no range icons or icons at all. Does anyone who has flown against or with them not think they would personaly like the most accurate and imersive game that they could design and write? But they have to make the game somewhat approachable.
While I would love it. I cant imagine a bigger advantage to give the long term experten then having a feel for the range without the indicator....
I know this is historically very realisic but put your self in the other guys $30 shoes..
Now we tell the newbies to keep at it and practice and the takeoffs will come. How long do we tell them to wait to figure out the ranges..without Icons to train them like we have had...
Historically most of the pilots never gained a good feel for visual range finding. From my experiance in the Army(badger should be able to attest) many people can never learn to visualy estimate range. If we make this game 100% realisic as a WW2 flight sim. How many people would enjoy it?
Hom many people who can afford it, wife will let them and HTC can communicate to that this is the game for them.

Multiple arenas. I logged on yesterday and there was a big historical arena bash going on.. I droped in but it seemed right about to start so I didnt interupt. The MA was at 45 players in primtime. That would be all the time with our current number of players. Would that hurt more then it helps? I dont know. But I bet that HTC has a pretty accurate opionion on the matter.

I you look at it honestly( you too weaz) you where probably unduly affected by a single engagment. I have been there so have most of the long term players.
There is nothing unduly unrealistic about a group of fighters chasing you down to the deck... If you had shot down 3 of them it would have been one of your favorite fights ever....If your squadies had blasted one or two off your tail it you would be laughing about those stupid NMEs that gave up so much alt for one target...

I am not saying you should not go....Athough I hope you wont. But dont decide in a day. And dont decide because HTC doenst now have the resources to be all things to all people.

Ps
Those extra 4 hot dogs are for weiner water soup..

[Badger]

   

Originally posted by Pongo:
Those extra 4 hot dogs are for weiner water soup..

hehehe....I wondered what they were for.  My Daschunds (Badger Dogs) love the extra four.  If they changed the packaging, I'm sure they would be really upset.    

Thanks for the feedback Pongo, but just a clarification.

As I said in my first message, "I'm not canceling my account as yet, but I'm taking some time away from AH until I can get a clearer view as to HTC's vision of what this product is supposed to be."  It just means I'm not going to be flying AH until I have the opportunity to see how the "packaging" issue sorts out over the next few months.

Anyway, I would bet the summer is particularly slower for all indoor computer based activities (I hope to get a lot of REAL cockpit time with nice weather), so that's just going to put increased pressure on all product suppliers to provide feature/benefit packages that not only increase their revenue base, but protect against potential attrition from players like myself.

Regards,
Badger


[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-15-2000).]

[easymo]

 Not being in a squad, I can sympathize. I get gang banged nearly every time I go up. I can be in a cloud of friendly,s, and as soon as I kill one or two guys, I have an army after me. They will dive through my guys (often easy kills) to get to me. I thought I waqs just paranoid, until I figured out they were in the same squad. DUH.
 Since im not in THERE squad, the friendlys will like as not stick in formation and just watch me die. I have considered quitting over this myself. But I think HTC will come up with some new stuff as time go,s by. And the guns alone, are worth not going back to WB.

 BTW. Are you the same badger that was in my squad in the ACA. If so. Im very happy( ) to see that your eye operation worked out. and you can still play. Once a Pukin Dog always a Pukin Dog  .

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 05-15-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by easymo:
 I get gang banged nearly every time I go up. I can be in a cloud of friendly,s, and as soon as I kill one or two guys, I have an army after me. They will dive through my guys (often easy kills) to get to me. I thought I waqs just paranoid, until I figured out they were in the same squad. DUH.
 (edited 05-15-2000).]

You should be  honored!  Hell, Hartmann, after having a price put on his head, had to change the looks of his A/C just to find a fight!  Be lucky they still come after you!  .

[+vadr+]

Glad you had fun at practice badger, thanks for the help.

Drop by any time.  

------------------
+Vadr+
III/JG 2 'Richthofen'

[Nash]

Argh... these posts are killin' me.

Forgive me for my reply... It's a monster  

I just don't don't get it... You're comparing the Aces High MA to one WB flight you had that was custom created by a guy with CM priveleges, so the JG2 could practice in isolation with arbitrarily set-up icon ranges?

Based on this, yer taking some time away from AH? Er..Well, not solely because of that... it seems you also need to evaluate HTC's "packaging" issues. I think you explained this somewhat by saying that this means only "a clearer view as to HTC's vision of what this product is supposed to be."

I don't have a clue as to how to go about parsing these statements... but... allow me take a stab at it, and forgive me if I'm wrong:

You are taking a break from AH until you get a sense of where HTC are going with this sim.

(You also mention the bad apples in the AH MA. However, they are most definitely in the WB MA (which was not the arena you flew in when comparing these two sims), so I aint gonna touch that.)

So, you wanna get a sense of where HTC are heading. How they are "packaging themselves"... Inna nutshell? Close?

I wanna say upfront, Badger, that through your posts here and in AGW, you've certainly earned my respect. Very clear, rational and informed posts, and I've never had a problem with the length... nay, I'm usually a little dissapointed when I reach the end. However, my sense is that, not unlike the folks who complain about the specifics of planes/ammo, you too are coming at these flight sims with a certain angle. The one with which you have the expertise... business.

For example, your problem with WBs isn't so much the sim itself, it is how much of a commitment you are willing to make to it, both as a player and as a potential or hypothetical investor. Your problem with AH isn't the 1C, it's the packaging, the direction, the vision thing.

That sed.

It has been stated over and over again by HTC, and is true of all online sims... There is never any *completed* product. Hell, I just read that AW was putting AW4 Vietnam on hold in order to go back and rework their WWII sim. Compare that to a post you made last week speculating that AW was merely in a holding pattern... existing solely to eke out whatever revenue it could before it dried up and died.

And it's no different from a bunch of posts on AGW saying they're right pissed with WB's, but holding onto their accounts in case WB3 is a winner.

WTF for? Either ya enjoy the sim, as it stands, today... or ya leave it. Delving into a company's fiscal concerns to gauge the potential amount of enjoyment you will receive from it this evening is so completely arbitrary to this as to be... and no offense (if possible)... but absurd. Needing to understand HTC's "vision" goes far beyond that.

Why do we gotta nit-pick these people to death like this?

And alas, I guess it's a sad sign of the times, so be it... but when you *speculate* that HTC's ultimate objective is to find a fashionable "exit strategy" (buyer), I wanna just throw my hands in the air. I have gotten NO sense of that.Forgive me a little speculation of my own, and call me naive...but my sense is that HTC are in this thing to make the best, most enjoyable sim they know how. Period. Don't forget they've had a little taste of "exit strategies" in the past. Then they created Aces High.

Now, ya either enjoy this sim, right now, today...or ya don't. It's that simple. Making that decision based on *any* parameter, being gun effectiveness or profitability (please) is of course, yer call. Completely up to you. But gawdammit if I don't get fed up with these kinds of posts that...sheesh, what's the word... F*ck it... I can't think of the word... uhm... it just reeks sumthin' fierce.

And I'm really quite disapointed with a few of you. Almost as if ya were scalpin' tickets to the Titanic, while wearin' a
freakin' life jacket. The hell ya thinkin' Rip? Weaz? Hang? It's saddening how these kinda posts just snowball, as if the content were indeed face value reality. If this place turns into the kinda crusty, bitter group that's evolved around WB's, that would truly be saddening. (Man... I'm gonna get fried fer that one <g> )

Personally I really like AH. There are problems, yes, but I *enjoy* the trip... the journey. And mostly I enjoy what I have in front of me... right now. It's the only game in town imho, and it just keeps getting better. So I'm stayin' put.

If you wanna go, just do it. No amount of financial data (come on...) is gonna change my mind.

Btw... the baddest plane in AH aint the F4, it's the n1ki.  

[easymo]

 Please quit bringing up the N1k2. I can deal with torque in a 1c. But he gives me fits in that nik .

[Brazos]

This is a fantasy main arena,

It will always be more popular than purely realistic flight sims. Scenarios will make the difference. Once the terrain editor guys start giving us killer scenario terrains, hardcore simheads won't have to deal with main arena hassles. Just wait a while longer. If these new arenas don't cut it, you'll have WWIIOL to submurge your hardcore jucies in.

[weazel]

 

. The hell ya thinkin' Rip? Weaz? Hang? It's saddening how these kinda posts just snowball, as if the content were indeed face value reality. If this place turns into the kinda crusty, bitter group that's evolved around WB's, that would truly be saddening. (Man... I'm gonna get fried fer that one <g> )

 It wasn`t my intent to start a "snowball" effect,and I wish I had just e-mailed HTC with my complaints-hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

 As far as the AH community "devolving" the process is well under way with Lazs bringing his "girly gray,wife beating sissy" remarks with him. While I`ve seen him (and bit too  ) troll with his remarks on AGW for a few years it still irritates me a bit. I guess his undermodeled noodle causes him to replace it with his "manly F4U"  . The more Warbirders who come to AH the more this community will become like it,on the whole thats not a bad thing as the WW II knowledge some of these guys share is great. He will prolly tone it down after awhile as his judgement is still colored by his WB experience,when I first came to AH I was rabidly anti Spitfire,now I just look at them as "wurger burgers" and even fly them on occasion.
 Badger pop into the SEA at 8:00 CDT some night and join us for a no-icons ETO battle,several of us are planning to do it on a regular basis and it`s a hoot!