Author Topic: energy  (Read 1994 times)

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2007, 08:47:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SkyGnome
As a general concept, absolutely.  The thing that makes a prop spinning at higher RPM slow an aircraft down more than a prop spinning at low RPM is closed throttle pumping losses (and some friction.)  This is very clearly modeled.  It is probably not calculated per piston or anything.... or even necessarilly different for various aircraft. ;)

The F4U-4 is outrageously heavy, much more so heavy than it has large flat plate area and high Cd0, I think.  I have no numbers to back this up.  Perhaps you can point me to your sources... ;)  The F4U-4 is still a pretty slow-accellerating aircraft relative to late-war monsters, evidence of a modest power/weight ratio (indicating the decelerating effect of the prop will be modest relative to its weight.)

For the La, if what you are providing as measures for flat plate area are the same as what HTC is using for their drag model, then it would seem that something may be off.  (Oh, and once you start talking flat plate area, the relative Cd0s are no longer really relevant, as that's part of flate plate area.)  But if those flat plate areas are what HTC is modelling, the LA should be a bunch slower, I think. ;)  What's your source for that LA number.. I'm really curious, as hard russian numbers seem as hen's teeth.  (And I don't mean the XXX girls... those are easy to find..) ;)

As to the P51s, they are quite close, B: 20.97, D:21.12 in my measure (at2k).  And I'd say my margin of error is ~1/2 sec (so by my measure, you could call it either way.)  They are darn close, the B might be a hair slipperier, but it's lighter by ~90lbs.  What exactly is the difference in Cd0 between B and D?  They have slightly different engine setups, too.  Regardless, they are very much the same airframe, and very much the same in performance.

Um.. You just said that Cd0 is "... minus lift induced drag".  What we are measuring by flying the planes level _includes_ lift induced drag, and thus won't follow Cd0 exactly.  And what we can measure includes the prop, which these numbers should not, I don't think.

I'd need to see the statement by Hitech to understand the meaning of that.  You first said, "HiTech previously stated that max RPM prop drag is not modeled.....", which could mean that drag induced by the prop at max RPM in a dive (beyond the max level speed), when the prop would otherwise be holding the airplane back (and over-reving the engine) is not modeled.  This would not be relevant in what we're currently measuring, and while being really interesting, would be very hard to measure.

But to say that prop drag is not modeled is absurd considering the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  Perhaps it is one really huge bug that makes our planes slow down quicker when the props are spinning? ;)

Ehh.. perhaps not, but it's pretty close.  I don't think your numbers support the La's speed, either, so perhaps it's a matter of different numbers instead of different concepts.  The La is only inexplicable given your flat plate number.


I have had issues with propeller performance in Aces High for years. Let's look at the La-5FN/La-7 types. They have narrow chord, relatively small diameter props (about 10'5"). Typically a prop designed for high speed. We then look at the Bf 109K-4 with a high activity, broad chord prop of slightly greater diameter. The power loading of the 109k is better than that of the La-7. Yet, the La-7 accelerates nearly as fast (less than 0.2 seconds slower from 150 mph to 250 mph).

As to airframe drag, I have no issues with this as it certainly shows greater speed bleed than the P-51 at minimum RPM. It's deceleration at max RPM is baffling. It's lighter, and has greater drag, yet it bleeds speed slower than the  ultra-slick P-51.

F4Us are equally interesting. Among the entire plane set, the F4U-4 ranks 9th in sea level acceleration. As altitude increases, it moves towards the top. So, acceleration is very strong being situated between the La-5FN and the 190D-9. The F4U-1 series occupy the middle of the plane set. Flat plate area differences between the F4U-1D and and F4U-4 are next to nothing. However, the -4 is heavier by a few hundred pounds and bleeds speed a bit faster than the -1D model. I'm not sure that this makes sense.

Despite all of the this, there is one test that shows how different drag modeling can be. Full power, high speed testing.

I took an La-7 off from a 10k field, dived down to 2k and (using manual trim as combat trim induces a climb at high speeds) 500 mph in WEP. I recorded the time needed to bleed down to 450 mph.

For the La-7, it required just 8.36 seconds to bleed off the 50 mph. In contrast, the P-51D required 19.25 seconds to slow down to 450 mph. For comparison, I also tested the P-40E @ 7.28 seconds and the 109K-4 @ 15.73 seconds. While these numbers for drag at high speed seem reasonable and in proportion based upon CDo and flat plate area, I don't see how they can be reconciled to power off drag numbers, even over the same speed range.

For example, under the same flight perimeters, but with power back to idle at max RPM, the P-51D required 5.56 seconds to scrub off from 500 mph to 450 mph. This was little different from the La-7 which required 5.48 seconds to do the same.

This odd drag behavior can be isolated to the propellers and I not sure that anyone can explain why it exists.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline SkyGnome

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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2007, 10:25:56 PM »
I'll check out some high speed testing.   Those results do indeed seem odd.  Do you have a bomb on the La? ;)

Before your post actually, I tried F4u1D vs F4u-4, since it's the closest thing to two exact planes with a different prop, and at least in the 300-200 test, they are very close:  (Oh.. this is with an F4u-4 with fuel drained to match the 11109lb weight of a 1D with 1/4 tank.)

At 2k, full rpm, throttle off
-4 22.22    -D 23.06
At 15k
-4 26.94    -D 27.69

Pretty close on both tests, with the -D holding E a hair better, if at all.  Both a bit too close to the margin of error to really make any broad statement, but it looks fine to me.

I guess if there is a huge problem, it's at speed greater than max level speed.  I'll play some more, though the high-speed stuff gets into a realm where the physics are complicated and poorly documented by free sources. ;)

Thanks for yet more info. :)

Offline humble

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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2007, 11:26:18 AM »
As many have stated here E fighting is as much "art" as anything else. So the real "problem" lies in interpretation. All the "rules" are involite (dont break them) right up till the moment you need to. Recognizing up front that my perspective on E fighting does "break the rules" do a degree here you go...

1) E fighting differs from the other 2 "artforms" in that it is enemy dependent. In a true T&B {turn and burn} angles fight both sides are bleeding E and fighting for angular advantage. In a B&Z attack the aggressor is making highspeed passes from an energy advantage. In each case while your reading and reacting your "mission goal" is based on your actions. In an E fight your actions are primarily based on the other guy (hence all the talk on judging E state). What often is left out (IMO) is that E fighting is based on relative E state...you can "E fight" from the negative just as easily from the positive.

The primary goal of E fighting (again my opinion) is the exploitation of differential energy state. If he's "fast" you use that against him, if he's slow you use that against him. The good E fighter does both.

2) On the "offensive" work on flying from over to even, never under (unless of course you need to (again the art form part). The key is to force the other guy to evade by breaking flat or down. Never extend horizontally more the 1.5 or 2.0 from the boigie...always up...never more then 2.5 over the con. Fly the vertical "obliques" (imagine a big X)...but you really want a V with the con at the bottom.

3) on defense your goal is maintain vertical "capability and work toward creating a marginal shot window. To win you need to "lure" the other guy into a shot solution that 1) he misses and 2) forces him to expend energy inefficently while your defensive manuevering stores energy thru its natural application. So in effect over time you've "worked" the other guy to a more even E state.

Alot depends on plane capabilities etc and you need to work with one of the trainers to learn a number of things.

1) your current skill level and understanding of ACM
2) your planes strengths & weaknesses
3) the value and use of flying "lag"

As a general rule I dont worry about E state beyond the following. If he's got alot of E then he's B&Zing....threat is marginal. If he simply goes all angles then if He's positive E (to me) I'll T&B (since he's giving me the edge). If he's negative E then I'll E fight (dney the T&B and take the high ground)...

Now the time to get worried is when the other guy....comes screaming thru and gives you the "under" (or takes the under then blows on thru)...into a lazy climbing chandelle that suddenly tops on out at 2.5k or so above then rolls on in off our 8 or 4 and goes back up to position himself 1.2-1.5 just over your high 10 or 2. At this point you know the chef is in the building and the fillet knife is out and that the "other guy" is running the carving station. This is where WW or murder or another of the trainers can give you the basic fundementals you need to have a chance at turning the tables. They can also show you how to execute a reasonable E attack where the other guy never gets a break or a chance to "breath"...

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Offline SkyGnome

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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2007, 01:57:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing

This odd drag behavior can be isolated to the propellers and I not sure that anyone can explain why it exists.


Played with this a bit more.  It would seem to me that the drag created by a prop at greater than max level speed would be determined by the level of pitch control available to the prop (note this is not related to the RPM range available.)  Basically, one would want one's prop to be at an absurdly high pitch in this circumstance to maintain constant RPM.

This data is available for some birds (printed on the props of some American planes,) but I couldn't find enough photos to do anything meaningful.

It would certainly apear that this is modeled, and would be a pretty reasonable explaination as to why the Hamilton Standard high-activity club does so well at breakneck speeds.

What would apear to not be modeled is the RPM increase that one would expect in the props that cannot set that high of pitch - though the net affect on combat would be the same as what is modeled.  Basically, you'd have to close your throttle in an effort to keep your engine from blowing up, but it seems that the game just does this automatically for you - creating the big energy sink that you see in the La7 at uber-speed.  This would also explain why when you do throttle-off decelleration, things even out considerably - it's just that the La appears to be automatically closing your throttle for you in overspeed conditions (saving newbs countless engine failures).

If anyone has some prop pitch data, that'd be darn interesting to look at and compare to the game's modelling, but barring that, it's certainly valuable info that the Hamiltons are killers at very high speed.

Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2007, 02:05:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
As many have stated here E fighting is as much "art" as anything else. So the real "problem" lies in interpretation. All the "rules" are involite (dont break them) right up till the moment you need to. Recognizing up front that my perspective on E fighting does "break the rules" do a degree here you go...

1) E fighting differs from the other 2 "artforms" in that it is enemy dependent. In a true T&B {turn and burn} angles fight both sides are bleeding E and fighting for angular advantage. In a B&Z attack the aggressor is making highspeed passes from an energy advantage. In each case while your reading and reacting your "mission goal" is based on your actions. In an E fight your actions are primarily based on the other guy (hence all the talk on judging E state). What often is left out (IMO) is that E fighting is based on relative E state...you can "E fight" from the negative just as easily from the positive.

The primary goal of E fighting (again my opinion) is the exploitation of differential energy state. If he's "fast" you use that against him, if he's slow you use that against him. The good E fighter does both.

2) On the "offensive" work on flying from over to even, never under (unless of course you need to (again the art form part). The key is to force the other guy to evade by breaking flat or down. Never extend horizontally more the 1.5 or 2.0 from the boigie...always up...never more then 2.5 over the con. Fly the vertical "obliques" (imagine a big X)...but you really want a V with the con at the bottom.

3) on defense your goal is maintain vertical "capability and work toward creating a marginal shot window. To win you need to "lure" the other guy into a shot solution that 1) he misses and 2) forces him to expend energy inefficently while your defensive manuevering stores energy thru its natural application. So in effect over time you've "worked" the other guy to a more even E state.

Alot depends on plane capabilities etc and you need to work with one of the trainers to learn a number of things.

1) your current skill level and understanding of ACM
2) your planes strengths & weaknesses
3) the value and use of flying "lag"

As a general rule I dont worry about E state beyond the following. If he's got alot of E then he's B&Zing....threat is marginal. If he simply goes all angles then if He's positive E (to me) I'll T&B (since he's giving me the edge). If he's negative E then I'll E fight (dney the T&B and take the high ground)...

Now the time to get worried is when the other guy....comes screaming thru and gives you the "under" (or takes the under then blows on thru)...into a lazy climbing chandelle that suddenly tops on out at 2.5k or so above then rolls on in off our 8 or 4 and goes back up to position himself 1.2-1.5 just over your high 10 or 2. At this point you know the chef is in the building and the fillet knife is out and that the "other guy" is running the carving station. This is where WW or murder or another of the trainers can give you the basic fundementals you need to have a chance at turning the tables. They can also show you how to execute a reasonable E attack where the other guy never gets a break or a chance to "breath"...


Enjoyed the sub-thread on the physics end of it all, but thanks for getting back to the main subject  humble :aok

SkyGnome....you would probably get alot more opinions if you took the physics part of E rentention & drag coefficients to the "Aircraft & Vehicles forum"

not that I am against it, I have enjoyed your & Widewings debates/discussion but it is getting off track of the orginal thread starters question....
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline SkyGnome

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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2007, 03:26:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Enjoyed the sub-thread on the physics end of it all, but thanks for getting back to the main subject  humble :aok

SkyGnome....you would probably get alot more opinions if you took the physics part of E rentention & drag coefficients to the "Aircraft & Vehicles forum"

not that I am against it, I have enjoyed your & Widewings debates/discussion but it is getting off track of the orginal thread starters question....


Heh.  I figured the original question had been beaten into the ground well enough to not feel back about the hijack. ;)

And besides, it's a lot easier to discuss something with one informed and articulate person who's willing to spend a bit of time backing his conclusions rather than opening the whole thing up to 10,000 weenies to flail about. ;)

Offline dtango

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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2007, 11:43:24 PM »
All this controversy emanating from a thread on energy :).  Before we digress to much with discussions regarding the flight model here’s my post on the original topic!

How is energy retention defined and how is it determined?[/i]   Of course the answer is:

Ps = (T – D) * V / W

For in that equation derived from Newtonian physics lies the secret to the energy puzzle.  Thanks to the likes of the infamous Col. John Boyd and Thomas Christie, his partner in stealing computer time for running thrust and drag calculations or the lesser-known E.S. Rutowski, fighter designers and pilots alike now grasp the importance of this simple but elegant equation.  Take the following image for instance:


Source: http://www.tonyrogers.com/news/viper_revolution.htm

The photo compares the turn rate and radius of the F-16 vs. the F-4E.  The designers of the F-16 achieved this incredible turning ability as a result of comprehending this elegant equation.

So let’s unravel the mystery behind this equation!  Doing so enables even us virtual pilots flying in our pixilated cockpits to extract the most out of the energy of our digital aircraft.  To answer how energy retention is defined, we need to first answer the question, “what is energy?”, as well as it’s cousins work and power.  

WORK:
Let’s first discuss work.  Not the work that describes the Dibert-esque existence that some of us know.  No, I mean what Sir Isaac called work.  In physics work is the action of a force upon an object that displaces it some distance.  In our world, when the aerodynamic forces of thrust, drag, lift, and weight act upon an airplane causing it to move through the air, well the airplane literally works (pun absolutely intended)!

ENERGY:
Well, for work to be performed, energy is required.  Energy is the ability to perform work.  It is the capacity to generate aerodynamic forces on an airplane to move it through the air.  No energy, then no work.  No work, then no airplane moving through the air.  

Three sources of energy exist to generate aerodynamic forces that move an airplane: chemical, potential, and kinetic.  An aircraft exchanges these energy types to maneuver.  The following diagram represents the exchange relationship between these energy types.


Source: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_03/textonly/fo01txt.html

Chemical energy (fuel) can be converted into potential (altitude) or kinetic (speed) energy.  Potential energy can be traded with kinetic energy and vice versa.  Ultimately to maneuver, an aircraft needs kinetic energy to do so.

There’s actually a fourth category of energy that is important to understand for airplanes as well.  That is the energy left behind in the air when an airplane passes through it, which displaces the air as well as heats it up.  For simplicity we’ll call this drag energy.  The following diagram puts it all together:


Source: http://www.av8n.com/how/img48/energy-con.png

ENERGY RETENTION:
So what do we mean by energy retention?  Energy retention is the aircraft’s ability to preserve its potential (altitude) and kinetic (speed) energy (transferred from its chemical energy) vs. the amount of energy transferred into the air as it moves through it.  As depicted in the diagram above the energy imparted into the air by drag cannot be exchanged back into potential or kinetic energy, therefore this transfer of energy “bleeds” the mechanical energy (altitude and speed) of the aircraft.  The greater the drag, the greater the mechanical energy bleed.

POWER:
Though a pilot can decide to re-arrange an airplane’s energy, the rate at which this energy exchanges remains finite or limited.  This brings us to the concept of power.  Power is the rate at which work can be done.  Stated differently power is the rate of change of energy with respect to time.  If we monkey around with the math related to the power concept, for an aircraft we end up with:

SPECIFIC EXCESS POWER:
Ps = (T – D) * V / W

Ah, our old friend!  This happens to be the equation for the Specific Excess Power (Ps) of an airplane.  Simply put specific excess power tells us the rate at which the airplane can exchange energy.  It represents the difference between the rate of energy transferred to the plane from the engine (thrust) and the energy transferred (dissipated) to the air from the plane due to drag.  In other words specific excess power (Ps) gives us a measure of the rate at which an airplane is gaining or bleeding energy.  It is a measure of the energy balance of the combined engine/airframe for a given velocity, altitude and G-load.  

When Ps > 0 the aircraft is gaining energy.  The excess power can be converted into additional altitude, airspeed, or both.  When Ps < 0 the aircraft is losing energy.  The negative excess power will result in either loss in altitude, airspeed, or both.  The larger the value of Ps above or below 0, the greater the energy gain or loss of the aircraft.  Specific excess power is also a measure known as energy maneuverability.

With the right data we can plot energy maneuverability (E-M) diagrams, which tell us Ps for given flight conditions and begin to understand specific aircraft energy maneuverability characteristics.  Badboy has put together many E-M charts for AH aircraft.  You can do a search for postings by him to find them.  He also has an informative article at SimHQ as well posted here:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html

I won’t belabor the topic that he’s done such a fantastic job covering.

RETAINING ENERGY:
Here are a few other tips on retaining energy:
[list=num]
  • Simply put fly your aircraft in the envelope where Ps is equal to or greater than zero.  This implies that there is a part of the flight envelope where you can maneuver your aircraft without bleeding any energy.  Yes I said maneuver.  Here’s where planes like the N1K2-J or Spitfire VIII surprise people sometimes.  They assume if the plane is in a sustained turn that it’s automatically bleeding energy.  This is simply untrue.  If the opposing aircraft has a greater Ps rating then the one I’m flying it’s likely that in a sustained turn it can actually out-turn mine even without losing any energy.  Worse yet it may even out-turn me and actually be gaining energy itself in the process.

    At an absence of an EM chart to reference, you can do some simple flight tests to figure out where the Ps=0 envelope is for your aircraft.  Simply fly a sustained level turn at a given configuration (weight & flaps) for a given velocity and altitude.  Apply elevator (stick) input until you either bleed airspeed or lose altitude.  At Ps=0 your altitude and airspeed should remain constant for a given g-load.  Above or below this point you will gain or lose altitude, airspeed, or both.  It should be noted that this is only good for a given altitude.  Also you'll need to test this for various airspeeds because the G-load for Ps=0 changes with airspeed.

  • Use 2-circle or nose-to-tail turns.  This has the effect of creating more distance to travel in a turn before either aircraft is pointed at the other again.  If the other plane is hellbent on gaining angles then using a nose-to-tail turn is a good way of inducing the bandit into blowing energy because they are holding as much of a maximum performance turn possible to get those angles but the longer turn results in more energy bleed in the process.  On the other hand make that turn at Ps equal to or greater than zero and you’ll be maintaining or gaining energy in the process.  Essentially this is one way to trade giving angles to the other guy for gaining a possible energy advantage.
     
  • Make your maneuvers with your nose up vs. nose down.  Trade in that speed for higher altitude as much as you can to store energy vs. bleeding it away to drag.  You’ll be surprised at how many people don’t do this and you’ll find that you end up more on top of the fight than not.
Of course much more could be said but alas I'm out of energy writing this "novel"! ;)

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 12:04:36 AM by dtango »
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Offline Murdr

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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2007, 07:51:30 PM »
Good thread.  Did you find the answer you were seeking df54?

Offline HoseNose

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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2007, 08:41:02 PM »
So. Spitfires seem to be good E-fighters after what'Ive read so far. They (especially the Spit16) accelerate very well in addition to climbing well.

While most posts I've read elsewhere say the F4U is the one of the best (if not, THE best) E-fighters around. So how would that statement be proven if it doesn't accel. as well as the Spitfire nor climb as well?

Offline humble

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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2007, 09:45:33 PM »
E fighting is a funny thing. you have a combination of raw "total energy potential" {not sure how you'd actually calculate that}....but lets say it represents the maximum potential energy a plane generates. Then you have maximum sustainable energy, then you have quickest energy augmentation, slowest Energy bleed etc....so in the end the gifted E fighter is balancing his planes capability vs the potential of the plane(s) he/she is fighting.

The hog is a tremendoud bird because it easily "converts" from B&Z to E to angles and back almost flawlessly. So the great hog driver is like a pitcher who has a 95mph fastball, a great slider and a 70 mph changeup. While he can beat you with any single pitch his real strength is his ability to get in your head.

I've actually found the A-20 to be a great E fighting trainer. I've got a couple clips that might help since they show a variety of scenarios. I'll post the 1st one here. Basically this is me tooling toward an enemy base and finding what appears to be a small mission. I think I'd already flown one bounce when it looked like things would heat up so I rolled film. The A-20 cant function as either a B&Z (you lose stuff you need) or pure T&B....so by default it has to be flown as an E fighter. If not for a bit of poor gunnery i'd have had a clean sweep in the end I think. If you go back to my earlier comments you can see the application of "neg e" e fighting. While I often have one or more cons on my 6 (inside 800 or so) the only real shot landed is basically a front QTR shot the A-20 simply cant avoid...

"prowling A-20"

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Offline humble

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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2007, 09:49:49 PM »
This implies that there is a part of the flight envelope where you can maneuver your aircraft without bleeding any energy. Yes I said maneuver. Here’s where planes like the N1K2-J or Spitfire VIII surprise people sometimes. They assume if the plane is in a sustained turn that it’s automatically bleeding energy. This is simply untrue. If the opposing aircraft has a greater Ps rating then the one I’m flying it’s likely that in a sustained turn it can actually out-turn mine even without losing any energy. Worse yet it may even out-turn me and actually be gaining energy itself in the process.


This is the real key in learning to fly the "lesser" planes. Often you'll find that anytime your "in plane" your losing....even if you think your winning. This is where you get closer and closer and "stall" right as you try to comvert to lead for a shot only to see the bogie effortlessly convert to a spiral climb or just suddenly eat up your gains and fly up your tail....

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Offline HoseNose

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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2007, 11:11:35 AM »
Thanks for the video humble! I can see how your E-fighting skills dwarf mine. It's amazing how you almost always kept your speed above 200 mph except during the scissors. I'll be sure to attempt the A-20 dogfights as well.

The spitfire XVI's can be very annoying to my Hog though, if they know how to use flaps properly.

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2007, 02:12:20 PM »
Hosenose.  Acceleration and excess power are only part of the equation of retaining E.  Inertia can play to the advantage of a sleak, relatively heavy weight fighter.  In other words, when you dive, your a/c will have a higher terminal velocity, and when you zoom, it will take longer for drag to assist gravity in slowing it's momentum.  While it takes more energy to get a heavier object in motion, it also takes more force to slow it.  That, along with the fine examples dtango gave may give some insight into your spit vs f4u comparison.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 02:19:17 PM by Murdr »

Offline HoseNose

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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2007, 02:57:15 PM »
Ah yes I see. I may be flying too much like a Spitfire in my F4U then as it seems I'm too reliant on my flaps and ability to shove my plane into tight turns. I notice I'm draining a lot of speed in the process and I end up going head to head with the spit.

If I get a film (and learn how to post it here :D ) I'll show you my relatively smelly skills.

P.S. What's with the ugly looking F4U-1C we have? Not only is it weird but it seems to turn MUCH tighter than the other Hogs for the first 2 notches of flaps.

Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2007, 09:37:14 AM »
This thread is great. It should be sticky.

Any other advice on reading enemy's E state?
Live to fly, fly to live!