Did anything happen to the 50 cal?

[Hangtime]

I flew a 109... for exactly 50 kills.  

Lethal as hell.. expecially w/ gondolas. Nice having mixed aramanets and split triggers. I hung the Gondolas, and set cannon for 250 convergence, and moved the gun pipper up a bit.

I found I could use the MG's at about 350-450 yards; get the other guys 'attention' so to speak, then as he tried to duck out as I closed; tag him with the kannonen at 250.

I found the 109's MG's were not very lethal... but suprised my self by getting several kills 'sniping' with 'em at about 400 yards.

Lucky hits; I guess. I agree Santa.. those little pop guns on the 109 have very limited effectiveness.. kinda like the 303's on the Spit. Which is just FINE by me.  

Hang

[bloom25]

I've convinced myself all of the gunnery woes that others have reported since 1.04 came out have been due to increased dispersion.  Since cannons do not really need to all strike the same point as the mgs, they don't seem as affected.  I REALLY feel sorry for those who fly 109s, c205, c202, spit, and use the rifle caliber mgs, they would be basically BB guns.  I think Pyro is right, damage hasn't changed one bit, but something sure has increased dispersion.

This may actually be more true to life than it used to be (cannons should be effected more IMO due to their inferior muzzle velocity).  I'd like to hear what Pyro thinks of this dispersion theory.  



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[-ammo-]

bloom, could be ..but dont know. I really havent had a problem with the 50's. Ive flown the pony alot lately and am completely satisfied with the lethality. I do my part and parts fall off the enemy. (that didnt sound right).  I set my convergence at 400 yds with both the pony and the jug and both are good for me.

I aint disclaiming what you have said as i tend to listen to you., I just don't see it the way you do I guess.


BTW--- the hispano 20 MM has darn near the same Muzzel velocity as the 50 BMG. both are right at 2900 FPS out the barrel. Because of the added weight and superior Ballistic coefficient of the 20mm projectile it out performs the 50 cal in all aspects..trajectory, external and terminal performance.. down range energy..etc


ammo

edited cuz I cant type

[This message has been edited by -ammo- (edited 10-19-2000).]

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
Try shooting a tank  
I've been doing that with few M16s offline, to test lethality of .50 against tanks..
Though, you must also notice with M16 that those guns are quite widely spread on the truck..
but I can say those hits were all over if i went bit further than 100 yards.

Oh.. by the way, I managed to rip tracks off  

Fishu, the M-16's ma duces are about 4-5 feet apart. The P-51,P-47, and F4U's ma duces are around 15 feet apart.

Keep in mind the M-16 weighs 9 tons. Weight related stability should be better on the M-16 because of the dampning effect.

 

[CavemanJ]

would setting for pattern hamonization or point harmonization be making a difference here?

With the pony I like, from outboard to inboard, 400/375/350, opening fire at 375.
Guess the dispersion would be really screwing me up when shooting at other kites.

But it dinnae explain the problems with the VH the other night

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Jigster:
Fishu, the M-16's ma duces are about 4-5 feet apart. The P-51,P-47, and F4U's ma duces are around 15 feet apart.

Keep in mind the M-16 weighs 9 tons. Weight related stability should be better on the M-16 because of the dampning effect.

 

Well, I don't really know anything how much dispersion those guns have.. but they have alot of it.
Even M16 and M3..
But from convergence distance, around it by 100 yards (so that there wouldn't be speed issue that could make convergence meet other distance than when bullets shot at the moving plane from convergence distance.. buah.. complicated.. try figure this out) I could see fairly alot dispersion with the guns.
but I don't know about that.. but one thing is sure that if I would aim the wing even with nose mounted guns, I would see lead hit all around the wing and maybe even the fuselage.. (plus misses  )

I've become more familiar with dispersion in 109s, when using machineguns or cannons, I've seen lead hit all around the plane from less than 200 yards when aim has crossed through the center of the plane..

[Jigster]

(I meant I don't think it's quite right, such as the MG34, doesn't disperse enough)

- Jig

[SKurj]

Another thing about MG's in my experience...
Real easy to wound a pilot by shooting MG's stead of cannon..   I actually think the chance of a pilot wound are unusually high when using MG's in AH....


SKurj

[Hooligan]

Dispersion?  Did somebody mention dispersion?  Ogre produced a gunnery study concerning dispersion and posted the results here:   http://www.cris.com/~reaper/gunnery/gunnery.html

It's interesting stuff.  Enjoy.

Hooligan

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by SKurj:
Another thing about MG's in my experience...
Real easy to wound a pilot by shooting MG's stead of cannon..   I actually think the chance of a pilot wound are unusually high when using MG's in AH....


SKurj

lol, I second this..
Specially P-38 gets easily pilot wounded or killed by PZ-IVhs 7.92mm.
It is second or first damage if p38 gets downed by panzers machinegun.

[bloom25]

That's great stuff.  Looking at those pictures of 50 caliber bullet impact locations reminded me of something I did the other day.  I was trying to calculate the various energies an electron emits in order to calculate the wavelength of the photons emitted in a 2-D quantum well when they jump from a higher energy state to a lower energy state.  (A 2-D quantum well is the structure used in creating laser diodes used in devices like CD players, keychain laser pointers, etc.)  In solving this problem you have to use Schrodinger's Wave equations (basically a probabilty equation that tells you where the electron most likely is located).  In one possible case the Schrodinger equation yields a probability plot that looks almost identical to the M2 50 caliber plot.  In fact the sine function is involved in the solution to both, probably the reason for the similarity.  LOL, I'm probably boring 1/2 of you to death about now.   I'd recommend looking at that site, interesting how the M2 has much less dispersion than the HS or to a lesser extend the MG151.  I'll try seeing if I can get a similar plot to Ogre's in Matlab and then maybe figure out whether something is wrong or right. It will probably take me a long time to find some time to do this. Right now I'd have to say that looking at the data at hand I now think that the 50 cal is pretty much spot on.  The HS does seem to accurate to me though.  Looking at those dispersion plots the HS looks like a shotgun blast at long range.

Great link!  



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by bloom25:
That's great stuff.  Looking at those pictures of 50 caliber bullet impact locations reminded me of something I did the other day.  I was trying to calculate the various energies an electron emits in order to calculate the wavelength of the photons emitted in a 2-D quantum well when they jump from a higher energy state to a lower energy state.  (A 2-D quantum well is the structure used in creating laser diodes used in devices like CD players, keychain laser pointers, etc.)  In solving this problem you have to use Schrodinger's Wave equations (basically a probabilty equation that tells you where the electron most likely is located).  In one possible case the Schrodinger equation yields a probability plot that looks almost identical to the M2 50 caliber plot.  In fact the sine function is involved in the solution to both, probably the reason for the similarity.  LOL, I'm probably boring 1/2 of you to death about now.   I'd recommend looking at that site, interesting how the M2 has much less dispersion than the HS or to a lesser extend the MG151.  I'll try seeing if I can get a similar plot to Ogre's in Matlab and then maybe figure out whether something is wrong or right. It will probably take me a long time to find some time to do this. Right now I'd have to say that looking at the data at hand I now think that the 50 cal is pretty much spot on.  The HS does seem to accurate to me though.  Looking at those dispersion plots the HS looks like a shotgun blast at long range.

Great link!  

homer need beer...


- Jig

[Hangtime]

LOL.. The obvious Solution... drink a rack of Bud's and close to point blank range.

Squeeze trigger. <burrrrp> *hic*

Hartmann.. American Style.

 

Hang

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
LOL.. The obvious Solution... drink a rack of Bud's and close to point blank range.

Squeeze trigger. <burrrrp> *hic*

Hartmann.. American Style.

 

Hang

If I had to drink a rack of buds, I would just open the cockpit and his him with a barf blast...much more effective


   

- Jig

[Grayclif]

Hey, Its the Grayclif! Coming to you live from the year 2000! I'm 18 again!