Author Topic: Climb Power  (Read 501 times)

Offline T3hRobG

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
      • http://rob-gevers.com
Climb Power
« on: November 27, 2007, 03:57:37 PM »
I attempted to follow a large bombing mission this afternoon but was a little thrown by some of the instructions flying around. Almost immediately after takeoff everyone was instructed to bring their Manifold pressure down using the numpad (RPM Decrease). Not being able to find a decent description of the 'RPM Decrease/Increase' I assumed this simply refers to the Prop setting for a constant speed prop. This being the case I can't understand why we would be decreasing this during a low airspeed, high angle of attack climb. The prop shouldn't be moved until cruise, and quite frankly should never be touched on climb-out from takeoff.

Somewhat confused by this, I followed suit and found myself loosing ground to the formation. I was never able to catch up. I assume I made a mistake by decreasing this, but I was hesitant and changed the setting several times so I don't really know for certain what was the proper thing to do. Can anyone with some experience in flying bombers in AH2 help me clarify? Am I correct in interpreting this as control over the constant speed props or is there some other function it serves.

Thanks!

Rob

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Climb Power
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2007, 04:11:21 PM »
Manifold is seperate from RPM.  RPM is default mapped to the - and + keys on the number pad.  Manifold is "throttle" and isn't normally adjusted on the keypad unless you have no other option.

On the clipboard you'll find the E6B settings for basic power settings.

I'm not sure why power was reduced on climbout.

Often with formations, it works best if the "lead" reduces power a bit, and lets everyone know what his setting is.  The rest of the group can adjust on their own to keep pace.  Eventually everyone should be at nearly identical power settings, and in tight formation.

If the lead formation flies on full power, the stragglers cannot catch up.  If you're a straggler, you should fly full power until you catch up.

MtnMan
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline T3hRobG

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
      • http://rob-gevers.com
Climb Power
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2007, 04:45:59 PM »
I think that might be what has me confused. It isn't strictly prop control since changing the pitch of the propeller should affect both rpm and manifold pressure. Somehow, changing the 'RPM' doesn't affect manifold pressure or fuel burn on its own (i was just testing this in an offline practice). So, what benefit does changing the RPM do? If it isn't prop pitch, what exactly are we changing?

Rob

Offline bj229r

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6732
Climb Power
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 06:00:28 PM »
RPM's in AH combines prop pitch AND prop rpm's......back off the 'full ' some 20% or so, along with similar in manifold, plane goes twice as far at 2/3-- 3/4 the speed---E6B show proper settings for each plane (I cant see any reason for fiddling with bomber rpm's, unless you've lost an engine and are trying to compensate, or are stretching to reach a friendly base to land)
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

http://www.flamewarriors.net/forum/

Offline dtango

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1702
Climb Power
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2007, 10:19:44 AM »
T3hRobG

You were correct in your initial understanding of what the "RPM" is there for in AH.  We have constant speed props in our AH planes so the "RPM" is actually indirectly setting the blade pitch angle on the props.   From your comments I think you understand the relationship between RPM and blade pitch but for others benefit...

For a prop in constant speed operation RPM's are controlled via the propeller governor that senses how fast the shaft is spinning and then adjusts the propeller pitch that either creates more force or less force for the engine to oppose. The force created by the prop varies with the amount of "lift" (thrust) that it is producing. The higher the aoa of the propeller blade, the more lift created, the more force needed to spin the prop. The opposite is also true. Using these forces the prop governor then maintains the engine RPM at the set speed by adjusting blade aoa/pitch as the shaft overspeeds or underspeeds the desired RPM.

And you are also right that manifold pressure is affected by the RPM/blade pitch setting which is also modelled in AH.  You can see this if you reduce RPM (blade pitch) to the lowest possible setting and then jam your throttle to full military power.  Note what your manifold pressure should read a much lower than what the full military setting manifold pressure usually is.

For others benefit -  the relationship between manifold pressure and RPM/blade pitch relates to how fast the crankshaft is spinning.  The faster the shaft spins the, faster the pistons pump, the greater the air suction into the pistons, the higher the manifold pressure can get.  If you slow down the crankshaft by reducing "RPM" then at some point there's less suction by the pistons which means reduced manifold pressure even if you have the throttle wide open.  

Of course manifold pressue is also influenced by how much RAM effect the engine is getting depending on how fast the aircraft is flying and the air density at altitude.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline T3hRobG

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
      • http://rob-gevers.com
Climb Power
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2007, 01:00:28 PM »
Thank you to everyone that responded. For all practical purposes in AH2, dtango's explanation should be used. If you are a pilot, or an overly picky person (or both in my case) there are 2 minor caveats I would like to add.

If you do not fit the above description, please read dtango's explanation and do not read further as the following is unnecessarily picky. But, these minor details had me severely confused about something I am rated to do in real life, so for the benefit of those few, here is my analysis.

1) The RPM increase and RPM decrease commands do just that. They set RPM *not prop pitch*. "But those are the same", you say. For all practical purposes yes. In reality, however, there is a slight disconnect. For example, at full throttle sitting on the ground, dragging the prop down into feather (dramatically and rapidly increasing the pitch) causes an increase in manifold pressure. This is not simulated. This is because the actual pitch changes aren't simulated, just the RPM change. Yes, eventually very high prop pitch will lead to lower manifold pressure, but initially, high pitch = high drag = large resistance to the rotation of the engine with rapidly expanding gas and large amounts of fuel = high pressure. The rpm is controlled indirectly by changing the pitch so the changes aren't instant. Because of this, initially you have high pitch And high rpm. I was looking for this and didn't find it which was the first thing that had me confused.

RPM decrease will immediately set your rpm lower, not transition it by simulating a prop pitch change. After that, everything applies normally with the exception of:

2) The 'fine stop' on the prop doesn't exist, at least for the aircraft I tried. When you set high RPM the prop governor will alter the pitch to maintain a high rpm. This means, as airspeed decreases with a fixed power setting, the prop pitch will get more shallow to allow the engine to maintain RPM. The example I illustrated was in a 109. I brought the engine back to idle. At this point, with the RPM set high, the prop will have gone nearly flat in-order to keep the propeller spinning quickly. As the airspeed then comes down with the lack of power, the propeller should eventually hit flat at which point, with no power and no airspeed to keep it spinning, the RPM would begin to drop.



Here you can see that scenario, nearly no airspseed, throttle at idle, sustaining a stall, with the RPM pegged at 25.

On the other end of the spectrum is the 'course stop' which is accurately represented. Put the aircraft in a dive. The governor should run the prop course to try to compensate, but eventually hit near feather and stop. At this point the RPM will slowly increase. This does happen in AH2.

So in conclusion, I apologize to anyone I have confused. Thank you to everyone that contributed. I hope this helps anyone that was confused : )

Cheers,
Rob

Offline dtango

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1702
Climb Power
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2007, 04:19:00 PM »
T3hRobG:

Your Point #1: HTC will have to comment on how they model that situation.  Propellers in static thrust are a situation to their own and are tricky to begin with :p !

Your Point #2: hmmm, not anywhere I can test this but I recall that on the Mustang if you set throttle to idle and leave RPM set at the highest setting, RPM still decreases as the airspeeds drop which you would expect so I think the fine pitch stop is modelled there.  

As you know the governor decreases the blade pitch to try and maintain a faster RPM because the RPM has been set to high.  It thinks that it's reducing blade aoa but in a windmilling situation the opposite occurs.  The finer the pitch the greater the blade aoa because the relative wind is now on the other side of the prop chord.  The prop will continue to spin if you have any airspeed because the blade has been set to a fine pitch which unintentionally maximizes the aoa of the relative airflow to the prop.  It wouldn't stop spinning unless you were completely feathered or at an extremely slow velocity or where the friction of the crankshaft was too great for the oncoming airflow to spin the propeller.

Try slowing down even more than the airspeeds you have and see if the rpm doesn't respond by going lower.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 04:36:04 PM by dtango »
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)