Author Topic: The Spiral rope (short film within)  (Read 1332 times)

Offline Steve

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The Spiral rope (short film within)
« on: October 28, 2008, 02:29:24 AM »
In another thread and in game lots of people have asked me about E retention and ropes. Some people have wondered in text/PM/vox how I retain so much E and more than one have accused me of cheating. I'm going to discuss the spiral rope in this thread but do not claim to be an experte. I'm just trying to help my fellow AH'ers out. Feel free to add your own ideas, comments.

A very simple and effective way to disguise E in the vert is the spiral rope. The goal of the spiral rope is to fool your opponent into over committing in the vert and thus giving you a gun solution on his very slow plane.  As you watch in the film it seems like such a simple thing, but there are several complex factors going on.

 First you must very quickly ascertain the E of the enemy. If you guess wrong and your spiral is too loose, you will pull too far from the enemy and he will see the trap. If you spiral too tight you will bleed E too much, giving a gun solution and the initiative to your intended victim.
When I say  tight spiral, imagine a tightly coiled spring... looser... less coiled. Before you can effectively spiral rope, you MUST be very proficient at QUICKLY gauging E states.
Notice in the film the distance of my target never varies much until he is completely committed, and then I allow him to get closer! I can do this in the spiral because I have correctly gauged his E state and know that he cannot pull enough lead on me for a gun solution. To keep him interested, I tighten the spiral and allow the distance to close, while not giving up a shot to the bad guy.  Watch the film from his POV and notice, even as he closes the distance, he cannot get his nose on me.

The next crucial step is to know  when to nose down for the shot. Many people go up until their plane stalls, or the target's plane stalls.  That's not how to do it!
The tricky part is to nose down BEFORE your opponent stalls, yet when he is too low on E to pull his nose up for a shot. The trick is to nose down so that you have a gun solution on a slow/helpless plane. The failing of many people trying to rope is that they wait too long to come down and once they do come down, they find themselves chasing a plane who has already nosed down and has enough E to attempt to evade.
 Notice in the film that when I have a gun solution, my target is completely helpless to evade.  You will see that as I come over the top I am quite slow.  I put in 2 notches of flaps and chop the throttle.... Combat trim off!  Reasons for this:  The 2 notches of flaps will keep my plane flying and allow me to get me nose up enough for a solution.  The chopped power in this film is for two reasons:  One: I'm slow enough that, at full power, I'd be fighting the torque of the engine as I came over the top then tried to acquire my target.  Two: My target is close enough that if I stay on the throttle, I might zoom down past him before I can get my nose on him. By chopping the throttle, I've given myself another moment or two to acquire the gun solution because I've slowed my rate of acceleration/closure.  Notice that as I nose down and begin to pick up speed I bring the flaps back up.  Reason: As you gain speed, deployed flaps are going to want to push the nose up and you don't want to be fighting this trend as you acquire a solution for your guns. 

Once you master E state gauging, you will become really good at  all of this.  I hope there are those who find this helpful.

Steve

 <S>   to  JB64
Film:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=6223b08b94613233d2db6fb9a8902bda
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 02:35:50 AM by Steve »
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Offline mechanic

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2008, 02:55:55 AM »
 :aok this works wonders in the mossy, amazing how much E a twin engine can horde, and how desperate some folk are to get a shot on you. The spiral element is what saves you when a straight up rope is going to get you shot by that chick 16.Steve, Good post, informative.
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Offline moot

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2008, 03:00:15 AM »
Gotta be extra smooth if you use the mossie for this, too.  It bleeds even easier than the 51D if you let it go sideways.
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Offline FTJR

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2008, 04:47:22 AM »
thanks for that Steve
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Offline Chemdawg

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2008, 06:50:04 AM »
I have to admit..that was some pretty impressive timing. What factors tell you its time to rollover and attack? I didn't see any of his wings dip from your perspective. (The usual tell tale of a stall)

Offline mechanic

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2008, 06:52:57 AM »
hope steve wont mind me fielding that one chemdawg. Its a simple answer. Repeatition.  :salute
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Offline uptown

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2008, 07:11:27 AM »
JB64 should have never tryed to climb up to you like that to begin with. That's just asking to die. I think if he would have kicked rudder hard right, 1 notch of flaps and hit wep the out come would have been different. I don't know. What I'm saying is his lack of knowing what to do and when caused his death more then anything. my rule of thumb is NEVER climb to your target except as a last resort..he had other options.
The snapshot on the F4U was what really impressed me! Did you page up for that shot?  :salute
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 07:31:28 AM by uptown »
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Offline uptown

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2008, 07:36:25 AM »
I have to admit..that was some pretty impressive timing. What factors tell you its time to rollover and attack? I didn't see any of his wings dip from your perspective. (The usual tell tale of a stall)

Steve doesn't use stall limiter and from what I could tell combat trim is off too. With those things off you have alot more control in those type of situations. That rope is all about skill....plain and simple  :salute
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Offline Hawk55

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2008, 08:28:40 AM »
Another smart thing Steve did was to use the sun to his advantage.  An excellently executed maneuver.   :salute
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Offline Pawz

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2008, 09:38:49 AM »
Great point Steve..I've also been accused of cheating with this move. I'm just guessing that they can't judge my  e status. I'd also like to say hi to all these great pilots on this post.

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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 09:48:40 AM »
JB64 should have never tryed to climb up to you like that to begin with. That's just asking to die.

I agree, this was simply a target of oppurtunity, you had much more E and alt. you simply took advantage of it.  It appears that JB did not intend on initially wanting to engage you, however he did nose up and misjudged your E advantage.



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Offline FiLtH

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2008, 09:49:18 AM »
    Disguising your E state is a huge part of my flying,except where you do it offensively, I do it defensively.
The P40E cant rope against very many planes so it comesdown to nursing away the opponents E by making him miss and collecting as much speed as possible through turns while avoiding his attacks.

    Eventually it comes to a point where the guy breaks and runs or goes up one last time thinking he still has the advantage, when I commit and surprise him with the reserve of E I saved. Hes usually stalled and winging over, just as Im adding a notch of flap and fill his cockpit.

     Interesting how we all have our tactics in relation to what we fly.

    

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Offline Steve

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2008, 11:09:03 AM »
Dadsguns you are mistaken. 64 did intend to engage me. He acquired me as I went past him on the way down as I took a shot at the la7. This isn't a thread on what 64 did or did not do. People have asked me about the spiral rope and I am trying to give them some pointers from my experience. Instead of belittling my efforts, why don't you share some of your uber skills with us?
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Offline uptown

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 11:50:48 AM »
My apologies Steve. I just woke up when I posted. Didn't mean to get off track there. It's just that the first thing that comes to mind with a move like you did there is what could a person counteract that. I was just thinking out loud.  :salute
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 11:57:20 AM by uptown »
Lighten up Francis

Offline Steve

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2008, 03:54:39 PM »
My apologies Steve. I just woke up when I posted. Didn't mean to get off track there. It's just that the first thing that comes to mind with a move like you did there is what could a person counteract that. I was just thinking out loud.  :salute


You weren't off track, really. I just didn't want it to become an indictment of 64. It's an easy trap to watch what someone did and then say how one should have done it. 64 even implied that he would have done things differently if he'd known it was me...his words. I'm not saying you wouldn't have done things differently. Again, I don't want 64 to be critiqued for his flying here.

My words were more directed at dadsguns who trivialized the manuever when I know full well he is incapable of replicating it with any regularity. You know, armchair quarterback stuff. There was another thread recently where he had a snide remark in a similar vein.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 04:02:13 PM by Steve »
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