Some films of Murdr killing me in the KOTHTOC 2009

[mechanic]

Here is a clip of three different fights betwen myself and Murdr in this years King of the Hill Tourny of Champions. Try not to focus on what i do wrong, and look at what murdr is doing right. His style is quite unique, patience and Energy retaining turns are the key. There seems to be very little effort put in by Murdr, though dont be confused, he is constantly altering his stance, very sublty. The majority of the first two fights remain even untill the last minute. Murdr uses a sustained flat turn to build up his possition then at the critical moment he converts to hi yoyo type turns which seal the deal. Essentially what he does is force the enemy to match his turn for ever, or break off and try a move...which usualy is just what he wants you to do.
 The Fm2 round final fight at the end shows just what impresses me about murdr's style. I am clearly winning this fight at a number of moments, but through patience and stamina he wears me down and in the end it is my own attacks that kill me.



here is the film. It is a little over 9 minutes long.

http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/Murdr_TOC.ahf

Absolutely packed with stuff to learn and think about.

Maybe Murdr can give us a quick explanation for the method behind this effective style of 1 on 1 dueling.

S! murdr and the rest of you, was a good TOC

[Bruv119]

even the best over do it too

I have him dipping a wing and augering in the final Yak9T round 

[mechanic]

you were definitely top of your game that night Bruv, i couldnt hold a candle to you in those f6fs.

[jerkins]

The flat turn later merging into a slight yoyo turn was very impressive during the TOC.  He was simply wearing pilots down.  It was a battle of mistakes, whoever made one, lost quickly.

[Murdr]

Essentially what he does is force the enemy to match his turn for ever, or break off and try a move...which usualy is just what he wants you to do.

That seems to sup it up pretty well.  I can't say I'm seeking luftberry fights, but I'm more than happy to work in that parameter if that's the way the fight evolves.  A neutral position luftberry is pretty much a matter of patience balanced with rate of turn, radius of turn, and often, circle offset considerations.  Given equal planes, a stack of seemingly minor efforts can accumulate into an end game option.  But more often than not, someone will lose patience and attempt something too radical that can be exploited. 

I guess a dynamic that's worth pointing out in that situation is that your net thrust depends on whether you have a nose up or nose down attitude.  Up produces more thrust, while down produces less.  But at the same time, sustained rate of turn suffers when fighting gravity, and improves with a gravity assited acceleration.  While working my rate of turn vs the opponent, I am also in the back of my mind taking advantage of every opportunity that presents itself to make some relative E gains with how I'm biasing my turn with the horizon. 

I'm tired.  Maybe when I have a clear head I can come up with more comments, but >S<, fun fights all the way around that evening.  It was a class field, with individuals that I'm always honored to be able to compete with.

[mechanic]

 It isnt really a lufterry fight because we have the benifit of airspace above and below us, most of the time. What is very hard to counter is your skill with the flat turn in general because the most tempting way to try and gain angles is to dive and try to work some vertical seperation and this is usualy when you counter-attack with the yoyo. The P47 and Yak fights are almost carbon copies of each other in this respect, I quite literelly 'gave you' the fight in both instances even though i was trying to work out a good angle to win with.

 Some people might say; 'OH, so all i have to do is keep turning flat and the enemy will make a mistake.' But this is not the case, most people who employ a flat turning fight against an aggressive vertical merge will lose very quickly. Murdr's talent is in turning at the right time and on the correct rate of turn to constantly remain out of reach. Most people are flat turning with a mind to get guns on, and thus usualy pull too much and lose alot of speed. This almost always leaves them in a weaker possition of E and far from optimal sustained turn rates. So what Murdr is doing so well is calculating something like; 'If i aim my flat turn to a certain point behind the target, but not actualy try to pull lead or persuit turns into them, I can almost always escape danger and keep reseting the fight untill the opponent fouls up.'

Got me thinking anyhow  Its a style that is very pure. When a new player starts the biggest chance of success comes from flat turning in a superiour plane against a less agile one. Murdr has simply learnt how to transfer this method of 'out flying' someone and made it work even in same plane duels with skilled opponents.
 

[Murdr]

I reviewed the jug fight again, and I see where that one really demonstrates what I was saying in regards to net thrust and relative E.  At 0:34 we match altitude for an instant, which makes for a good snap shot of E states (Batfink 198mph, Murdr 109mph).  Starting at our respective peak altitudes, Bat drops 1,200ft in his first 360, I drop 700ft in my first 360.  During that time, I'm maintaining better thrust efficency (gaining relative E), which is a theme I continue, while at the same time trying to minimize his converting that energy advantage into angles.  Angle and separation are my primary concern, and the thrust is just an after thought that I'll work if possible, but look at how the effect accumulates.  By 1:14 when we match altitude again the speeds are (Batfink 134mph, Murdr 145), and that nearly 90mph speed deficit is gone, but neither of us have gained angles enough to "make the difference".  By 1:48 when our altitudes align again it's (Batfink 109mph, Murdr 155), and I have both the energy and position to intercept his transition into the vertical.

The only reason I'm highlighting it is because it's a facet of "he is constantly altering his stance, very sublty", that's not very obvious.

[mechanic]

i quite agree with all that murdr, and it prooves how much of a fool i am for wanting to play you at your own game and not use that E for a rope or BnZ you till we run out of fuel. But then that is the only way i can see my self learning, fighting people without any advantage to back me up. Right there is proof i couldnt give a damn about winning the trophy I only cared about beating you without advantage.  After the Fm2 fight, which i should really not have augered in, I get even more foolish with my speed and E state to try and match your style reasonably well most of the time. The more I learn to fly like you the less you will beat me, is my philosophy.

[Murdr]

You're being waaay too generous Bat   You talk like you're well outside the "top teir" of sticks in AH, but my impression is different. 

That is a good learning philosophy, and is probably how I picked up most things along the way.  I still credit the repeated experience of "almost" shooting down the likes of Drex and Levithn, for that "staying just out of reach" thing you mentioned.  I thought I came from AW with good shot avoiding tactics, to learn that I was rough, and guys like that had it down to a fine art.

[mechanic]

 I think a more outright agressive stance from me might have paid off better, although possibly not. But overall I was wary of being low n slow against you(as i have been before in the TA) and trying to focus on maitaining a possitive E state to work with. While i can hold my own, i know there is alot of room for improvement in my sustained turning knoledge of quite a few planes.
 There is alot to think about in a fight like that. Everyone else is dead already and watching to see who messes up first. How fast is murdr coming in? Is he going to go for E or angles? If i do another loop will i break over the 6k alt cap? All these things slow down one's ability to concentrate on the fight, and my indescision shows at many points. Still very close stuff though, make or break all the way.

[gpwurzel]

Excellent flying, both of you. Got nothing to add to the discussion, but that film is in my review and keepers file lol.........


One day, maybe, one day!!


<S>

Wurzel

[NHattila]

Great film/fight guys! Look forward to learning from it once I start flying again! <S>