Me 210/410

[Ack-Ack]

AKAK, would you say the same for the Mossie?

That the Mossie was outclassed by most single engine fighters as well?  Yes.


ack-ack

[Karnak]

For fun I modded moot's chart and added what should be a fairly accurate speed chart for a Mosquito FB.Mk VI with Merlin 25s and ejector stacks.  I also took off the MIL power lines as they aren't really relevant.




As to the idea that a Me410 could be thrown around the sky as competition for a Spit XVI, I think you are dreaming.  One of the few combat accounts I have read that involved the Me410 was an encountered in Italy.  Two Spitfire Mk IXs (probably Merlin 66 powered LF.Mk IXs) attacked a Me410 PR aircraft.  The Me410 saw them coming and dived away, gaining distance.  The Spitfires dove after, but after a short chase just above ground one gave up and turned away.  The other Spitfire was more determined and kept after the Me410 as the rear gunner emptied his guns at the slowly gaining Spitfire with no effect.  Once in range the Spitfire easily dispatched the Me410.

The notable thing here is that the Spitfire chased it down in a long tail chase and that the barbettes were completely ineffective.  The Spitfire would not have been able to chase down a P-38J/L or a daylight Mosquito Mk VI.

[moot]

I have no idea how they figured those barbettes were a good idea, in the design phase.

I don't get how the 410 would be slower than the 110 like that, below 10k.  That blue line should have an indentation at 15k, considering it's there for the MIL curve.

As far as competing with mkXVI.. I'm not picking any argument here, but Krusty said it wouldn't compare and I don't remember anyone saying otherwise. A mossie or 1/2 ammo 110G will give a spitIX its money's worth, if flown right.  I mean they have a much better margin to compete in than e.g. a 152, IMO.  Whereas the 152 is restricted to forcing the spit to spill its E and then pound it with BNZ, the 110 and Mossie can easily compete with the IX on its own terms, for a few revolutions. 
If you change the chart I posted above to include the basic 410 (2x50cal + 2x20mm) and put it in dogfighting trim (500 .50, 350 20mm, plenty!), it has better wingloading and powerloading than a mossie.  It beats all the twins on that paper chart.  Whether the estimated figures are accurate (this 131+151 is probably the closest, it's straight from historical docs) and whether they'd translate well in practice is another story (e.g. zero clues on departure behavior), but IMO it makes a compelling case for the 410 as a pretty viable dogfighter. 


I'm not trying to play luftwaffle with paper figures.  This is how it appears to me.

[Karnak]

moot,

The Spit IXs in my story would, in AH, be best represented by the Spitfire Mk XVI or Spitfire Mk VIII.

That is what a lot of people don't get about the Spit IX.  We have a mid-1942 Spit IX that has nothing like the performance of the mid-1943 and on Spitfire Mk IXs.

In fact, the modeling on the Spitfire Mk XVI in AH is that of a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe, not a Mk XVI.

[moot]

Yep I know, I'm not arguing history.  Those pilots flew overloaded and much less disposable planes, didn't have as much stick and trigger time as us, didn't have furballing conditions, had only one life, etc.  What I mean is that the AH XVI isn't representative (popularity aside) of the average opponent you run into in the arena.  It's far to one side of the scale, so neither the 410 nor almost any other in the plane set can really compete.

Do you know what the AH mk IX engine is rated at?

[Karnak]

What do you mean "rated at"?  HP?  Boost?

It is a Merlin 61 at +15lbs boost and, I think, 1565hp.  However, it is blown for high altitude.

[Krusty]

It is interesting to note the spits had to chase in a "prolonged tail chase" to get near it.


But, as noted, nobody said it could compete with a spit16. Then again, my point was "not much can!" -- so that's not an important comparison. Compared to non-spits, it would be quite an interesting (and IMO somewhat formidable, if flown with 2 20mms only) plane to come up against.

[Karnak]

I imagine the Me410 did something like 330-340 on the deck.

[Stoney]

Moot,

From a non-scientific eyeball of the wing arrangement, I'd say the low-speed stability in the roll axis will be marginal, due to wing taper.  Those skinny, pointy wingtips should be susceptible to tip stalls faster than a lot of other aircraft.  Also, I'd expect somewhat sluggish aileron response due to the higher aspect ratio and what appears to be limited area for the ailerons.  On the other hand, it should climb really well, with the extra power and the high aspect ratio.  I'd also expect that if your numbers are correct, it should accelerate very well too.

But, its simply got too much wing area to be a real hotrod in the speed category.  I would expect a marked increase in top speed at sea level versus the 110 though.

[moot]

Thanks Karnak & Stoney
Do you think the roll stability will be much worse than the other twins too?  The wing taper looks similar to my layman eyes.

[Kazaa]

I see one fighter and 6 bombers.

[Boozeman]

First, thanks Moot for the complete document. I really appreciate it. 

Secondly, I am almost shocked how slow actually the 410 is according to that document. Granted the chart only displays MIL power, but still,  we are talking of a DB603A here which should make at least as much power on MIL as a 605A on WEP. But still the 410 is much slower than a 110 at the same power level.

I wonder what sucks all those HP up. Is it that much draggier than the 110?

[moot]

I see one fighter and 6 bombers.

6 big fish, 1 small fish


My pleasure BM.  Those barbettes probably took something like 10-15mph off the top speed.  There's only the antenna mast to obviously spoil aerodynamics, other than that. The 603A's MIL output is supposed to be 1680hp, over the 605A's 1475hp on WEP. So the overall frame's shape must be the culprit.. It seems strange to me because, to me at least, it looks slippery enough.  More than the 110.  It's also strange because the 410 was supposed to deliver better speed than the 110.  It doesn't add up at all that there'd have been so much noise about the 210/410's excessive instability, but not such a shortcoming as equal or minimal speed improvement over the 110, everywhere but at high altitude.  If you also consider Karnak's anecdote, where the PR 410 still has the barbettes, it seems hard for that "top speed @ SL" figure from Warplanes of the Luftwaffe not to be wrong.  Then again it's just an anecdote.  The 410's dive might've been fast and early enough to compensate for as slow a natural top speed as 315mph @ SL.

[Karnak]

We also don't know the altitude of the final chase as it did happen over land, not over the sea.

[froehlich]

If they add the 410 which i have been waiting forever to see if they add it would be the best bomber killer in the game with a 50mm cannon. No daoughtabout it.