How do you fight zeros?

[mtnman]

One question I get asked over and over is how to fight planes like zero’s and hurri’s in an F4U.  It seems like a lot of people have problems with those, and since I was just asked again the other day I figured I’d film a few fights and show an effective way to deal with them. 
I don’t fight them quite the same way I approach other planes in a 1v1 situation.  Most of the time, in a 1v1, I’m trying to slow down and stall fight, which for me at least, doesn’t work very well against these two planes.  Against a zero or hurri, if I get slow, I die, unless the other pilot really, really screws up.
Against a zero/hurri, I fight a “looser”, smoother, faster, fight, and I’ll maintain or build an E advantage over my opponent.  I'm also going to use a very strong vertical component, and minimal use of horizontal turns.  This gives me a margin of safety, and allows me to translate my E—advantage into an angles advantage when I have an opportunity to shoot.  It also gives me a huge advantage over my opponent, in that I am dictating the terms of the fight, in no uncertain terms.  My opponent can’t leave, and he doesn’t get to steer the direction of the fight.  It doesn’t even seem fair sometimes- if you watch closely during these two fights, when am I ever really in danger?

http://www.mediafire.com/?zgnqtyziznf

In the first fight (F4U-1A vs A6M5), we’re basically at the same height, at the same speed at the beginning of the fight (I started filming this just as I finished another fight).  Per my “normal” routine, I dive to pick up some speed, and merge from beneath my opponent, with my nose up and his down.  In this case, I don’t have enough time to get the speed I want, my timing is late for the start of my immelman, I’m distracted keeping some buff pilots informed of the nearby bad guy, and haven’t gotten “serious” yet.  As a result, I’m dreadfully out of position and will quickly die if I don’t adjust my tactics.  At 22 seconds into the fight I’m fighting  a losing battle, but have an opportunity to start over.  I exit while he’s not in a position to immediately follow, and pick up the speed I need.  I’m going to attempt to set up a rope.
As I pick up speed in my dive, I want to do two things.  One, I want to look tempting, so I don’t want to extend too far.  And two, I don’t want him to have an opportunity to build much speed himself, so I level out and start my shallow climb before he has much time diving himself.  You can see I limited the extension to about 1.5K, and by about 40 seconds in I’m leveling and subtly starting my climb with a 40-50mph advantage.  It’s important to watch the film at this point with saved views and trails enabled, with your filmviewer’s views set properly.  What you want to notice from this point through about 1:06 is that my climb angle is increasing, but at a subtle rate which forces his flight-path to nearly mirror my own.  If I go too steep too fast, I’ll give him a corner he can cut across, which will result in bullet holes in my plane.  Also notice that I don’t use flaps going up, when the added drag will hurt me.  I use them at the top to try to delay falling back too soon.  As my speed drops I stall and fall (at about 76mph, which is faster than the fabled 30 mph I’ve read the F4U can do, maybe my plane is defective?).  I’ve misjudged the rope in this case, and don’t have a shot!  Oh so close!  Imagine if I could have hung for just another second or two! 
Oh well, try again.  He can’t go anywhere.  We’re all alone over the water…
Problem- he recognizes the rope now, and won’t bite again.  As a matter of fact, he wants to give me his six, or leave.  But he can’t leave, hehe!  Merge #2 is nearly the same set-up as the first, except I have a healthy speed advantage, and go right for the rope.  He recognizes it and refuses to come up.  He’s also firing at 1k now, when he held fire earlier.  What does that say about his opinion of where this fight is going?  Since he won’t follow the rope, I just have to attack from above him (bummer, eh?) and the fight is over.

[mtnman]

The second fight is on the deck, and is a more jumbled, furball-type fight, but my zero-tactic stays the same.  I don’t need to extend as far, since in this fight I have the luxury of the F4U-4 engine.  Notice that as he starts to turn it into a turn-fight (where he’ll probably kill me) I just go past, keep my speed, scan for bad guys, and take him up…  He doesn’t have a lot of good options.  Come up on the rope, or let me attack from above and behind.  Again, minimal use of flaps.  I really use them mostly to reverse at the top, and to set up my final shot.  No F4U hocus-pocus either, just smooth flying.

http://www.mediafire.com/?awiynndddom

Of course, there are other ways to fight to slow, tight-turning planes.  This is just one option, but an option that can lead to high rates of success in 1v1 fights with a couple of planes that can be frustrating at first.  Keep in mind that they generally pack cannon rounds, and just a hit or two can end the fight.  Also watch out for the guy who won’t follow the rope, but pulls up into an HO-type firing position as you dive.  Those guys are easy to beat too, if you watch for them.  As soon as you see him pull his nose up, roll 90 degrees, and pull up, basically into a high yo-yo, which turns into a rope anyway.  He’ll stall under you, and you shoot him as you come down.  By rolling 90 degrees or so, you give him a tough shot, and since he’s coming up to try for the shot, he’ll generally rope himself.

[AirFlyer]

If you want mtnman, I could probably help out with some film.

That is, I'm not the best A6M5b pilot but we could do a few 1v1s and I'll be target practice.

[texastc316]

good videos, added to archives

[shiv]

Ty mtnman, much appreciated. 

[Anaxogoras]

As I pick up speed in my dive, I want to do two things.  One, I want to look tempting, so I don’t want to extend too far.  And two, I don’t want him to have an opportunity to build much speed himself, so I level out and start my shallow climb before he has much time diving himself.  You can see I limited the extension to about 1.5K, and by about 40 seconds in I’m leveling and subtly starting my climb with a 40-50mph advantage.  It’s important to watch the film at this point with saved views and trails enabled, with your filmviewer’s views set properly.  What you want to notice from this point through about 1:06 is that my climb angle is increasing, but at a subtle rate which forces his flight-path to nearly mirror my own.  If I go too steep too fast, I’ll give him a corner he can cut across, which will result in bullet holes in my plane.  Also notice that I don’t use flaps going up, when the added drag will hurt me.  I use them at the top to try to delay falling back too soon.  As my speed drops I stall and fall (at about 76mph, which is faster than the fabled 30 mph I’ve read the F4U can do, maybe my plane is defective?).  I’ve misjudged the rope in this case, and don’t have a shot!  Oh so close!  Imagine if I could have hung for just another second or two! 
Oh well, try again.  He can’t go anywhere.  We’re all alone over the water…

Good film.  I thought that first rope attempt was a little dicey.  If he had hung a little lower and waited for you to stall before attempting to line up a shot...it might have been closer.

Once he tries to extend away it's just basic BnZ.

[Agent360]

Very good post  

I agree and fight these two planes the same way in my 109K4. If you have the time and space you can stay on top as mtman describes. I do it nearly the same except for a few things.

If I am worried about other cons I must try to make the kill as quickly as possible. This is very difficult as these two planes can pull into the ho position almost at will. Plus the longer it takes the more chances you have to screw it up.

On the very first rope attempt I pull what I call a "fake rope". This I try to achieve as soon as possible. I have no intention on going for guns. As mtman describes I take them up by leading into what looks like a typical verticle rope move and then roll 90 deg into a flat turn on top before I loose airspeed ( I want to keep at least 200 mph at this point)...pointing my low wing at the bandit. I start a shallow flat turning dive closing the distance but staying offset in lag pursuit on the high side.

To the bandit this looks like a very superior position (it is) and normally induces them to continue a hard break turn to the deck. I then shadow by using shallow yoyo's to keep my speed and position. I simply cut the corner with a low yoyo. Even though the bandit has the turn advantage it doesnt matter because I can just fly my plane to him on a collision course...let the tater rip and get guns inside 100.

If I miss I simply roll flat go strait up and roll 90 deg the OPPOSITE way (if it was a right hand turn I go up then  to a left flat turn above) forcing the bandit to reverse low and up. I now fly a dive into a flat turn under the bandit and get him on his verticle reverse. Even if I miss here I still have a verticle escape by going strait up leveling and shallow diving away. Which is what I do if other cons come into icon range. Your dead if you fight these two planes with other bandits coming in co alt or with co speed. The only option now is to escape away from the zeek/huri and set up another engagment with the incoming cons out of range of these two.

In short the procedure is to pull a fake rope immediatly, lag pursuit into the high side and yoyo into guns on the down side. Force the break turn and reverse the position on the top catching them on the oppsite turn to the down side again. If no joy then escape and reset with alt and and re evaluate the situation.

The point is to put the pressure on immediatly. If you give them time to seperate it only turns into a repeated cat and mouse game with the zeek/hurri pulling repeated nose on turns into you with you constantly nose down and them cutting your corner on the zoom up. You then have to extend out and reset. Just more time for the gangers to show up.

The counter moves: If the bandit spots this offense he will attempt to do nothing but pull very hard into your nose denying your yoyo moves or counter with a equal low yoyo himself into nose on. If this happens I know I can pull a classic rope by going strait verticle into a climbing spiral wathing the bandint on the low wing side. Stall the low wing flip over and go strait for guns.

The lower I force them and the more I make them brake turn the more energy I gain over them. I get the energy becasue they lost it. Meaning If I keep mine constant and they loose it then I have more. And this alows me to maintian a top position on the high side in lag pursuit. My goal is to stay as close as I can making guns as many times as possible and always ready to escape vertically into the sun or make a top side flat turn.

A few notes about the zeek. It can climb 3k/min at 100 mph. This is very important to note (Not even a k4 can do that). That zeek can stay nose up for ever like that. If you go verticle and loose your speed inside 800 he will catch you every time. You must maintian a speed advantage of around 150 mph. Do not stall in the vert at under 100 mph if he is close. Experienced zeek pilots know this and will hold nose up in a shallow turn waiting for you to come down. You will get cut off and shot on the down side. Zeeks dive reasonably well. Contray to popular believe the zeek can be easily maneuverd at 350+ mph. Be wary of the zeek who allows you to think he is too fast and draws you into a nose down tail chase allowing you to close for guns. He will cut throttle and opposite rudder over right onto your six and still be able to catch you if you do anything but run.

[Agent360]

Good film.  I thought that first rope attempt was a little dicey.  If he had hung a little lower and waited for you to stall before attempting to line up a shot...it might have been closer.

Once he tries to extend away it's just basic BnZ.

By Agent360
"Do not stall in the vert at under 100 mph if he is close. Experienced zeek pilots know this and will hold nose up in a shallow turn waiting for you to come down. You will get cut off and shot on the down side"

Thank you for pointing that out Anaxogoras because that is exactly what I was talking about in my quote above. 

[mtnman]

Good points guys!

I kind of liked the fact that the first rope was dicey, hehe.  It gave me an opportunity to show that it wasn't necessarily an "easy" thing to do right, the first time, every time.  It also gives an opportunity to show that the faster plane can still direct the fight, even if the first, and sometimes the second, plans don't come out right.

I would guess there are a fair amount of guys who are "close" in thier use of tactics, but don't quite have them honed.  And that when that first plan goes bad, things get worse in a hurry.

[Oldman731]

I would guess there are a fair amount of guys who are "close" in thier use of tactics, but don't quite have them honed.  And that when that first plan goes bad, things get worse in a hurry.

Starting with an altitude advantage is one thing.  How do you guys deal with a co-alt, or superior alt, zeke, when you're in virtually any other plane?

- oldman

[mtnman]

In that first film, we're co-alt, and basically the same speed in the beginning.  In the second film, he starts on my six while I'm busy looking at a spit, basically on the deck.

Neither one starts with me at an advantage, other than what I can get from the plane.  The zeke has a turning, guns, and acceleration advantage over the F4U, so I need to remove those from the fight.

In any plane faster than a high attacking zeke, all you really need to do is equalize the speed difference he'll ahve on you if he dives in.  With a superior-alt zeke diving on me, all I'm really going to do is put my nose down enough to get my speed up, and turn it into a chase, where we'll be catching me at first, then holding even, and then falling back.  From that point on, I'm going to have a speed advantage.  I'm not going to go into a dive for the deck, by any means.  I'll use the shallowest angled dive that will suit the current need.  I actually want him on my six, and want him close enough to stay tempted, but just out of effective guns range.  I don't want to dominate him in the dive, and cause him to zoom back up to his perch.  I also don't want to lose any altitude that I don't need to.

In a best-case scenario, as he dives in, I may be able to turn into him enough to spoil his shot, and that'll be his last opportunity, as I'll now straighten out and get some speed.  Worst-case (er, second-to-worst, worst-case means I need a new plane) he'll be right on my six, shooting at me as I try to pick up speed.  In that case, I'm going to do some rolling, with very minimal use of elevator, trying to spoil his shot long enough to pick up some speed and extend out of guns range.  It'll be a random L/R roll, and pretty much needs to be nose-down to get speed anyway, which also probably benefits by making my plane tougher to see against the ground, hopefully causing him to miss.  Any use of elevator will slow me down, so I'll use it very sparingly, hopefully not altering my flight path much.  I DO NOT want a scissors effect.  Use of elevator will also allow him to see more of my plane, which also defeats my goals (I'm a bigger target).  The number-one goal must be to preserve your plane from his bullets, so go ahead and dodge, just don't forget the long-term requirement to winning the fight, which is having a speed advantage.

As with all fights where your opponent has a height/speed advantage, maximizing horizontal spacing, while minimizing his opportunities to maintain vertical spacing over you will quickly help take away his advantage.  In other words, head for the horizon at every opportunity, trying to maximize the need for him to chase your tail.  Eventually this just turns into a zero chasing a faster plane, which results in the faster plane getting away or setting up his own attack.

[Sonicblu]

I get in a brew to fight the zero. 

Good post Mntman and agent

[Noah17]

Sorry to restart this older thread but is is very much related to a some questions I had in the BBS recently..

Mntman great films and explanation. I noticed in the films that as you went vertical on the zeke that your speed was less then what I thought "good vertical speed" would be for the F4U-1A or even the -4.

I have trouble with extreme buffeting or even spins if I try to go vertical at 250 or less(it's happened an awful lot lately I'm beginning to wonder if I have a stick/rudder setup that's somehow bad). I don't know if I'm pulling on the stick to hard/fast? You seemed to glide slowly and easily straight up. I also noticed that you did this with the zeke about 800-1.0 away and a small speed advantage(at times). I was afraid to try this thinking that the zeke is such a great climber that the F4U would slow much faster and the zeke could continue it's climb thus catching me "hanging in mid air" and kill me.
Agent 360 said: "You must maintain a speed advantage of around 150 mph. Do not stall in the vert at under 100 mph if he is close. Experienced zeek pilots know this and will hold nose up in a shallow turn waiting for you to come down. You will get cut off and shot on the down side. Zeeks dive reasonably well. Contray to popular believe the zeek can be easily maneuverd at 350+ mph." This didn't seem to be a problem for you as I  think you only had a 20-30MPH speed advantage one  of those times. It just looks so easy for you to set up the rope when I thought that you were both at about the same alt & speed. I didn't think you could set up the rope in that situation.

I have the same trouble with Hurricanes and Spits, although there's so many different versions of the Spit that they're almost like different planes....

[mtnman]

Sorry to restart this older thread but is is very much related to a some questions I had in the BBS recently..

Mntman great films and explanation. I noticed in the films that as you went vertical on the zeke that your speed was less then what I thought "good vertical speed" would be for the F4U-1A or even the -4.

I have trouble with extreme buffeting or even spins if I try to go vertical at 250 or less(it's happened an awful lot lately I'm beginning to wonder if I have a stick/rudder setup that's somehow bad). I don't know if I'm pulling on the stick to hard/fast? You seemed to glide slowly and easily straight up. I also noticed that you did this with the zeke about 800-1.0 away and a small speed advantage(at times). I was afraid to try this thinking that the zeke is such a great climber that the F4U would slow much faster and the zeke could continue it's climb thus catching me "hanging in mid air" and kill me.
Agent 360 said: "You must maintain a speed advantage of around 150 mph. Do not stall in the vert at under 100 mph if he is close. Experienced zeek pilots know this and will hold nose up in a shallow turn waiting for you to come down. You will get cut off and shot on the down side. Zeeks dive reasonably well. Contray to popular believe the zeek can be easily maneuverd at 350+ mph." This didn't seem to be a problem for you as I  think you only had a 20-30MPH speed advantage one  of those times. It just looks so easy for you to set up the rope when I thought that you were both at about the same alt & speed. I didn't think you could set up the rope in that situation.

I have the same trouble with Hurricanes and Spits, although there's so many different versions of the Spit that they're almost like different planes....

The speed difference is a bigger issue for me if you're not careful to be sure they're following your same path upwards (but, 5o mph is probably better, hehe!  Notice I missed my shot, and he got awful close himself...).  Personally, I don't like a large speed difference over my opponent, because they notice that easier, aren't as tempted, and it can put me much higher than them when I reverse, making it harder for me to get back down to shoot them before they're nose down and "flying" again.

If you didn't already do it, watch the film again with trails enabled, and pay attention to how closely he's following my trail as I rope him.  If I allow him/don't notice that he's "cutting the corner", he could catch me.

Hopefully this drawing helps with that idea-


The dark blue line is me.  As I swing up into the rope, I want him to follow me up like the fuchsia line does.  I do not want him to cut across the "corner", as the red line does.  The red line is a shorter path, therefore he can get higher/closer to my tail even if he's slower than me.  If I enter the vertical too abruptly or with too much separation, he has the option to "cut the corner".

The rope isn't just something I decide to try, and then go for it.  It's something I plan, and then monitor closely as I/we transition deeper into it, so I can adjust it, or abort it.  If things aren't looking right, I abort it.

There are loads of variations to this "standard".  Differences in speed (of one or both planes), my maneuver at the top, his choice of path to follow, etc, all play into it.  I wouldn't worry too much about "fancier" ropes until you can do a basic one fairly easily. 

I find zero's fairly easy to rope, as well as hurricanes.  The reason for that is probably because that's just how I fight them.  In 1v1 fights, probably 95% of my Zero/Hurri kills are ropes, with a few shot in the back or cockpit because they decided not to follow my rope.  Those are really the only two options they have if I use my plane's strengths, and deny theirs.  They're too slow to dictate the fight or get away. 

One factor that helps here is that they know they can turn better than you, and will try to do so (put that into the predictability column). 

All you need to do to build an E advantage over them is to fly away with them chasing you until you pull ahead 2K or so, and then reverse with a high yo-yo or immelman, being careful to not scrub your E.  Now go back at them, stay a bit to the side (and higher if possible) so they miss on their HO shot, and do it again.  It's just about a given that as you go by near them, they'll pull hard for a shot, and to latch onto your tail (what other options do they have?  If they don't point their nose at you, you'll shoot them...).  That hard pull scrubs their E, more than your "careful" reversals do.  Do that twice, or maybe three times, and you should have a speed/alt advantage over them even if they started on your tail at equal or even greater speed...  The trick is to get them to scrub E on their reversals, while doing your own reversals in a less E-expensive manner.

At that point, with them following and slower, a rope is an option, or else simply dropping onto them from above.  If you have an obvious E-advantage they won't likely try to follow your rope though, unless they're very inexperienced...  Which is why I like to rope with less of a speed advantage.

[mtnman]

I noticed in the films that as you went vertical on the zeke that your speed was less then what I thought "good vertical speed" would be for the F4U-1A or even the -4.

I have trouble with extreme buffeting or even spins if I try to go vertical at 250 or less(it's happened an awful lot lately I'm beginning to wonder if I have a stick/rudder setup that's somehow bad). I don't know if I'm pulling on the stick to hard/fast? You seemed to glide slowly and easily straight up.

I would guess that you're pulling to hard/abruptly, but I don't really know, since I haven't seen you fly in person (I don't think...)  I fly with a pretty "gentle" hand.  I'm not afraid to give full stick-deflection, and I often do, I just do it smoothly. 

For every change of direction, you're doing to create drag and burn some E, for the most part.  The trick is to get the direction change done, with whatever timing is necessary for that particular instance, but without burning any more E than you have to (unless you actually need to burn some E, hehe).  In the case you mention, in that film, I could have easily gotten a bunch of buffeting, stalled, and/or spun, just as you mention.  I can get that pretty much any time I'm under corner speed...  I didn't want that though, so controlled the plane in a manner to avoid that, but still get the job done.

If you're having trouble with those aspects, you aren't effectively able to "fly the edge" of your plane's flight envelope.  That's ok, you just need to practice more. 

Adjusting some stick settings (stick scaling) may help, but I'm not a good one to ask about that (I like my stick settings maxed out on the "sensitive" end).  Look up AKAK or Murdr's stick settings, here in the Forums, if you think you'd like to try that.

Until you're able to master the extreme edges of the flight envelope, you won't be able to really benefit from what the plane can do, or use those advantages over your opponent.  That's what makes this game so hard/addicting/frustrating/fun/rewarding.