F.2B Rear gun

[Baumer]

It was my understanding (right or wrong) that the rear Lewis gun could swivel and elevate on the scarff ring bar. See images below,





I was wondering if this was a post WW1 change, or if we just have a limited field of fire?

Maybe its a trade off since we don't have to stop and load new magazines.

[Treize69]

I'd gladly reload the magazine for e proper field of fire.

[Krusty]

The question then is "How do you model this"?

AH uses joystick (or mouse, for the desperate) to move things around. It would take joystick+mouse, or joystick+second joystick, or some double combination to control both the elevation/rotation of the ring, and THEN on top of that the elevation/rotation of the flex mount within any given "ring orientation"

Suggestions? thoughts?

[DEEC0NX]

The question then is "How do you model this"?

AH uses joystick (or mouse, for the desperate) to move things around. It would take joystick+mouse, or joystick+second joystick, or some double combination to control both the elevation/rotation of the ring, and THEN on top of that the elevation/rotation of the flex mount within any given "ring orientation"

Suggestions? thoughts?

Dont we already usea combination of elevation and rotation in tank turrets? 

[Krusty]

You've got 2 combinations of elevation/rotation. First for the frame, then for the gun.

If you liken it to how tanks are modeled, the ring is the turret, and the gun flex mount is the MG on top of the tank's turret. Only the gun has a limited range of motion, and you would have to constantly jump back to the turret, move its position/orientation, then jump back to the gun to see if what you want to hit is in your field of fire.

Rinse/repeat if the target is moving. It's too clunky. You need a way to do that all from 1 position (i.e. no jumping from turret to gun and back)

[Simba]

Thanks for the link to this string, Krusty.

You've described the 'two-stage' use of the Lewis gun perfectly. The solution of course is to fly with a Poor Bloody Observer (PBO) who has sole custody of the Lewis, thus leaving the pilot free to concentrate on flying the aircraft and firing the forward gun. The PBO sets the desired angle of the Scarff No.2 ring yoke by pressing the appropriate key, swivels the ring by using the rudder control and pivots the the gun up-or-down, left-or right via the stick. A bit like an ape threading needles, I know, but then that was the cruel reality for a PBO. Anybody choosing to fly a Bristol Fighter single-handed suffers the present limited field of fire if he hops from the front into the back seat - which serves him right for trying to take on more than one crew position at once.

 

[Baumer]

Sorry, this was my reply in the other thread. But I agree with you Krusty, modeling this is very complicated.

CC Krusty I believe that I mentioned that it would be hard to model. I am not sure how to do it either, with the existing control set.

An idea I've been toying with is this;

Once in the gunners position, toggle to the "Mouse Gunners" view (for lack of a better term [maybe shift H]). So then the ring's rotation, and bar elevation, are slaved to the joystick, but the gun would be slaved to your mouse. However, I'm not sure the gunner would have the true "view" over the gun, I'm not exactly sure how much range of movement he had.

[LesterBoffo]

 The Scarff ring rotation can't be handled by using the arrow keys?

  It's not likely to be something constantly adjusted while leading a target with the joystick.  The early planes used a pillar mount or one of the complicated French gun supports, which had a pretty fixed range of fire.

 And then there's the damn Quirck...

[Krusty]

Well, even though it is a "flex" mount, it still is limited in range. Say you've got the "turret" set and you want to move the "flex mount" to aim the gun. You're right there. You need to keep your hands on the gun and turn/aim the gun while keeping your rear strapped into the seat. You can only lean/flex so much before you can't aim anymore. It's like head movements inside a cockpit in AH.

In that regard, maybe it's appropriate to use the arrows, as it is moving your head and just pivoting over the fixed point on the elevation bar (trigonometry, right?)

[LesterBoffo]

 That's the way I see it.  I'd say adjusting the elevation of a double Lewis gun Scarff in the middle of a fire fight should require some difficulty and effort.

 The FE2b had multiple pintle mounts for the observer's Lewis.  The thing about the Lewis was it was light, maybe not as light as the Chauchaux, but an average man could easily lift it out of one mount and transfer it to another, given the pilot wasn't doing vigorous evasive maneuvers.   The Fee had a rear pillar/pintle that required the obs to stand on his seat while he aimed over the top wing.   

   I tell you what, the men who flew in these things had big brass ones, in any situation.

[Simba]

You're right there, those early air fighters had mas cajones. Especially those Fee gunners, who often unclipped the 'donkey strap' safety line so they could get a better shot - amazing!

The twin-Lewis 'Huntley and Palmer' setup was mainly used by PBOs in Corps aircraft, as they usually flew at lower levels. The 'Sandow' (aerolastic or 'bungee') cord that aided the raising of the Scarff No.2 ring yoke was thicker and stronger on twin-Lewis mounts too.

On the Quirk (BE2c), probably the best gun mounting was the one devised by Louis Strange; the ghastly 'goalpost' crossbar was virtually useless and endangered the pilot more than the enemy.

 

[Simba]

"You need to keep your hands on the gun and turn/aim the gun while keeping your rear strapped into the seat. You can only lean/flex so much before you can't aim anymore. It's like head movements inside a cockpit in AH."

Don't forget that the gunner's rear often wasn't in the seat, it was in the standing position when he raised himself to his full height to gain the firing angle necessary for a downward shot, and as low as he could get it when squatting down for a high-angle upward one. The gunner's 'safety harness' was usually no more than a thick belt coupled by a light cable to a ring-bolt in the floor; it was known colloquially as the 'donkey strap'. The gunner often disobeyed orders and disconnected the device in order to get a better shot. The back-rest of the Scarff No.2 ring was usually removed for the same reason: the PBO wanted all the movement possible.

Yes, it's going to be quite a challenge to accurately simulate a RFC/RAF gunner in AH . . .

   

[W7LPNRICK]

"High Road to China" with Tom Selleck had some really neat shots of a couple DR-7's and a D1 tri-plane flown by a villain, of course. They talked about the Lewis gun and Lewis gun struts. 

[perdue3]

I have a solution:

If you fly the Bristol in WW1 arena, kill planes with the forward gun UNLESS you have a gunner. WORK for your kills people.

no me gusta Bristol tail dweebs.



perdweeb

[BrownBaron]

no me gusta Bristol tail dweebs.

Getting bilingual, are we?