Author Topic: Microsoft FF2 Repair  (Read 23453 times)

Offline nrshida

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2010, 02:33:27 PM »
OK Bravo,

For you and whoever else needs it:

Remembering what everyone else said, I'm trusting you've looked for all the simple stuff first, i.e. in software, tried alternate USB ports, recallibrated in both Windows and AH and so forth.

I have now received my Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 Joystick. Mine is part number X08-58736. If your number differs don't worry. If the exterior is similar there should be little or no difference. I have dismantled it and made some photos for you as promised.

From what you reported I suggested it might be a mechanical problem. This we can certainly check. You should have no trouble dismantling it enough to check for such damage. It really is very a simple process. Don't panic!

I imagine I am obliged to say something like I am not liable for any injury and it's at your own risk blah blah blah. But I'm confident you will survive!

It's probably easier to work with the stick inverted on your lap, with the handle hanging down between your legs.

Firstly, on the underside of the stick's base, there are three very obvious screws nearer to the middle. These potentially present the only problem. They are not anti-tamper screws or Torq-sets or anything weird like that, they are modified Phillips screws to make them 'tamper discouraging' shall we say.





I found that a Tamiya Philips #2 screwdriver fitted perfectly. Any Phillips screwdriver OF THE RIGHT SIZE will fit too, do not be tempted to make do with an incorrectly fitting screwdriver, because if you damage these screw heads it is game over. If you put the driver in the screw and it is a positive fit and doesn't wobble etc, then you've probably found the correct driver.

The screw heads are of a modified pattern to make it harder to unscrew them. The trick is to use much more downwards pressure onto the screw than turning pressure. I found they were not very tight, once they clicked loose they were easily removed. Set these 3 screws aside safely.

Next you must pry off the 8 rubber disk feet that are found near the edge of the baseplate. They are self adhesive. If you get something reasonably sharp that you can force completely under the edge, you can simply lever them off. Once you've done one you'll understand it. Lay these carefully aside, adhesive side up and try not to touch that surface. They can simply be reattached afterwards.

Under each rubber foot is a normal Phillips screw. Remove each one and set them aside. These screws are all exactly the same length, no need to make note of where they came from.





Once this is done, the bottom plate easily comes away. Revealing a gimbal, two circuit boards and two electric motors with a small black gearset.





The dark green circuit board with CAUTION and PRIMARY and SECONDARY printed on it is the power circuit and should be loose. If you jiggle the black power lead socket it should come out. Grip the circuit board by the edges and just fold it out of the way. It's unlikely, but there is a tiny possibility that there is some residual charge in the capacitors (the silver cans with the black sleeves on them). It's generally good practice to avoid touching the electrical parts if possible, but don't get stressed over it, I gave it a proper wrangling with no ill-effects (although I did seem to lose an hour today and now my hair is all sticking up).





Lifting this circuit out of the way will let you look at one of the gearsets. Start here looking for damage: gnarled or missing teeth, foreign objects, something loose etc. The gears should turn the motors smoothly when you move the stick. There should be no clunking noises or binding etc.





If this gearset is good, remove the two screws which hold the light green circuit in place. They are at either end of the 'Microsoft' text. Lift the circuit board as needed so you can inspect the gears, handling it as carefully as possible. Take extra care not to stress the wires that go into the tiny plugs. If you like you can unplug these, grip the plugs on the plastic edge with some pliers with serrated jaws (otherwise they'll just slip off) and pull gently. On no account try to unplug them by pulling on the wires. Each connector is unique, you cannot reconnect them wrongly.





This gear set looks like this:-





Again look for the same damage, move your stick around and inspect the gearset.

If you find no problem here then you must inspect the gimbal. This is the part in the centre of the stick which translates your sticks movement into the two channels used for Ailerons and Elevators in game (the rudder pot is in the handle of the stick and has no FF).

The gimbal looks complex but it's really not, just check everything moves properly with no binding (sticking) or clunking. Check that the wear is reasonable with nothing slopping around.

If that's all alright you need to look at your motors. Move the stick and listen to the cans for odd noises. It is normal for it to feel a little notchey (softly notchey), it is just the coils moving past the magnets. Give the motors a sniff (bear with me here, lol) if one of them smells burnt this is significant.

I went a little further with my disassembly than you probably should and completely removed the gimbal from the stick's housing. Hopefully these pictures help you look for anything wrong. This is basically how one gear and motor set are attached to the end of your stick:








If you do find something broken or loose, please make a picture and upload it and I should be able to give you a reasonable solution, within reason. This might include a suggestion to replace parts!

If everything checks out OK then it is not a mechanical problem. That's also useful information. You probably then have a worn out potentiometer, a fault in the digital circuit or a problem with one of the motors that you can't see etc.

That probably leaves you with limitted options to be honest, since you said you're not so good with electronics. Electronic diagnostics is a bit more involved than the mechanical side. As I mentioned earlier if you still have your other broken stick you can always substitute parts block for block, without too much understanding of what they do. As I say, follow the instructions for disassembly first and let's see what you find.



Here I'd love to say reassembly is the reversal of disassembly, as I always read in manuals ha ha. It's actually pretty true, but there are a few provisos. When putting all the boards back in place, carefully reroute the wires so they can't get snagged in the gears etc. There are little tabs provided in the case.





When refitting these kind of self-tapping screws back into plastic, I find a good trick is to position the screws vertically, turn the screwdriver slowly backwards until you hear a click, then turn the screws carefully in (clockwise). Do not over tighten them. I think they need about two and a half full turns of the screwdriver each but it will be pretty obvious when they've had enough. Just a little more than finger tight is sufficient.

The final picture shows it reassembled plus the tools I used. I tested it straight after and it worked fine.





I hope you can follow the guide. It does look very complicated but it's just long winded, I've tried to cover everything and assumed you didn't know anything.

Hope you find something that is easily fixed, good luck!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 04:07:37 PM by nrshida »
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Offline pervert

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2010, 10:24:05 AM »
Fantastic stuff nrshida thank you :aok

Offline Bravo80

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2010, 10:59:00 AM »
OK, I'm holding.

Offline nrshida

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2010, 12:23:02 PM »
No need to hold now Bravo, there's the instructions above for you, go for your life!
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Offline Bravo80

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2010, 01:07:47 PM »
Thank you very much for your time and effort, it was very kind of you.  I'd like to attempt to do something this weekend if I have time.

Offline nrshida

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2010, 02:45:06 AM »
You are welcome.

Pervert I thought carefully about upgrading the gears and I think it's not feasible. Replacing one or more of those gears with brass might save wear on the teeth but would probable pass the stress along the line to the mounting plate etc. and it's really not up to that. You'd probably have to end up re-engineering the whole unit. Have you inspected your gear sets, it's certainly worth cleaning and applying new grease. Is there any backlash in your teeth?

What surprised me more was the potentiometers. I was under the impression that the FF2 retained optical tracking for the main axes at least, but it isn't so. Pots throughout. I'm surprised you've got such a long service out of them. The FF2 is night and day different in design & construction to the older Game Port version.

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Offline pervert

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2010, 12:13:56 PM »
You are welcome.

Pervert I thought carefully about upgrading the gears and I think it's not feasible. Replacing one or more of those gears with brass might save wear on the teeth but would probable pass the stress along the line to the mounting plate etc. and it's really not up to that. You'd probably have to end up re-engineering the whole unit. Have you inspected your gear sets, it's certainly worth cleaning and applying new grease. Is there any backlash in your teeth?

What surprised me more was the potentiometers. I was under the impression that the FF2 retained optical tracking for the main axes at least, but it isn't so. Pots throughout. I'm surprised you've got such a long service out of them. The FF2 is night and day different in design & construction to the older Game Port version.

Regards the gears would it not be the same force along the drive train anyway? Was pretty sure its optical tracking? Will have to crack mine open soon one of the hat microswitches is starting to stick.

Offline nrshida

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2010, 04:48:55 AM »
Yeah I was as surprised as you. The pots, or the things that look very like pots that are pot-shaped and have three wires coming out of them like pots have (I haven't dissected one of those yet as I'm using it) are on the opposite side to the gear sets. The whole design and construction is in stark contrast to the optical sensor-based previous version. It is possible that there's two versions of the FF2, but I thought the red switch version was just a cosmetic change. Please do upload some photos when you open yours up.

Yes it would Perv, but it's not so much the overall force that worries me. These plastic gears have a fair bit of spring or give in them. I think you can even feel it when the stick is doing guns effects for example. You'd lose that quality with brass gears. It might work out well, but I imagine you'd then need a thicker mounting plate, then have to re enforce the plastic mountings for them too etc. etc. Probably end up doing what the Thrustmaster Cougar modders do, but I wouldn't choose the FF2 design as a base for something like that. I'd rather use the original Sidewinder instead (thinking, thinking).

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Offline zack1234

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2010, 05:26:50 AM »
Are they stepper motors in FF stick?
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2010, 05:35:50 AM »
No Zack, in the Sidewinder they look like Mabuchi RS-540s or something very similar.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2010, 05:49:23 AM »
motors constanly on?
If you stop a motor will it not burn out?
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Offline pervert

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2010, 07:07:45 AM »
I doubt they could be pots and maintain that level of accuracy with heavy use, CH are high quality and use pots and they even they seem to encounter problems after a few years use. My stick still tracks smoothly and evenly and centres perfectly.  :headscratch:

Offline Ghosth

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2010, 07:27:13 AM »
From what he's describing he's got the same pots in that that I have in the Sidewinder Prec 2 USB (non FFB)

And yes they are pots, just very very good ones.
Possibly digital pots if such a thing exists.

True optical hasn't been made since the original 3dpro



Should look like the small black pot on the left. Not the 2 big ones.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 07:35:24 AM by Ghosth »

Offline nrshida

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2010, 11:46:30 AM »
Zack, the whole thing seems to behave essentially like two great big R/C servos. The motors are loaded as necessary when it meets resistance or needs to be shaken etc. It even sounds like a servo when the power is barely on the motors.

I didn't really dissect or inspect the 'things that look like pots' too closely because I just wanted to help Bravo quickly and I'm now using the stick so I didn't want to wreck it. I just pulled them out of their mounts, had a little cry when I realised that they probably were pots and then put it back together. I think you could be right Ghosth, small but very high quality, hence the longevity. They do look like the leftmost item your photo. I'm as confused and disillusioned as you are Pervert!  :headscratch:

The optical sensor on the previous version was a masterpiece of design and engineering. Looks like Perrine had the right idea. If you're listening how did you get on bud?
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Offline Razzor 479th

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Re: Microsoft FF2 Repair
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2011, 03:29:18 PM »
Great Post guys.  In the same area, my MS FF 2 Stick has a plastic trigger. On the back side of the trigger is a little molded nub that makes contact with an inner button which fires my guns.  Unfortunately that little plastic nub has worn down to the point that it really doesn't depress the inner button anymore.  I've searched high and low for a replacement trigger, but to no avail.  Anyone have any thoughts on how to repair the trigger or rebuild that plastic nub?  My stick works just great except for the worn trigger.

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