Remove overload ammo from all but 1 P-47

[Squire]

Im aware of its history but it seemed the conversation was leaning towards the possible conclusion that the 425 round option was a close support load only. If that is the case, then the P-47M (used by the 56th FG in early 1945) would be the version to remove it from, since it was the only version of the type that was used purely in the air to air role. You will note the P-47M cannot carry bombs in AH, that because of its role historically, not becauae it could not carry bombs. All the other P-47s in game; the P-47D-11, P-47D-25, P-47D-40, and P-47N were used in both roles in WW2, a/g, and a/a.

The 9th Tactical Air Command used the P-47D-11, P-47D-25, and P-47D-40 in the close support and fighter-bomber role from 44-45, some 12-14 groups total. Thats not including the 12th AF in the MED and units in the PACIFIC with the 5th and 7th AFs (mainly ref to the P-47N here). Thats a huge # of P-47s that were employed either mainly or in part in the ground attack role.

Then you have the 8th AF(ETO) and 15th AF (MED) which flew mainly escort, with some air-ground as well.

Can you elaborate on "only one group used the overload" are you referring to a group in the 8th AF only? you didn't specify or provide any further detail so its hard to know where you are going with it.

[EDO43]

The P-47 models didn't have 425 rpg. The D11 didn't, the D25 didn't, the N didn't, and the M didn't.

Not true.  USAAF T.O. No. 01-65BC-1 dated January 1943 clearly states that the maximum number of rounds per gun is 425 for the B, C, D and G models.  It does state that the normal load of ammunition for the six gun package is 300 rounds per gun and with eight guns, 200 rounds per gun.  Republic specifications I have for the M and N model show 267 rounds per gun for the six and an additional 233 per gun for the two overload.  I have not yet found a POH for the M or N models.  I'm sure it exists somewhere but I have not seen it yet.  With the wing basically unchanged during the production run (P-47N additonal fuel and span notwithstanding), if the 425 was allowable in the B, C, D and G models, it would most certainly be allowed in the M and N models as well.

One single group used the overload ammo load solely for ground attack and strafing. These would be late war D-40 types (or close enough), so if it must be left in-game, leave it only on our D-40. Remove the 400-round option on the other craft.

Which group would that be?  The vast majority of the 8th and 9th AF P-47 groups did air-mud.  Even the 56th FG toted bombs regularly.  Gabreski was made a POW when the propeller of his P-47D-25RE hit the ground on a strafing run in June or July of 1944. 

Anybody who sprays ammo at 2K is either a newbie or an idiot....3400 rounds or not, at that distance you'll never hit anything except the ground and even then, not accurately.

[W7LPNRICK]

I like the overload for buzz sawing the bombers into pieces and not worrying about Oh, I only killed 3 bombers and still have 700 rounds to fight the fighter coming up now. 

[FLS]

EDO43 You can get a P-47N manual here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/other-mechanical-systems-tech/p-47-thunderbolt-manuals-5081.html

--)-FLS-----

[Stoney]

Its also in the AH Wiki.  Maximum load possible for the N model was 500 rounds per gun.  Page 56 of the POH.

[lyric1]

The POH for the P-47N states that the max load was 500 rounds per gun not 425. Maybe we can get that increased. 

This is a partial photo of a damaged P47-N right wing that is being repaired. Notice the stencil?



http://www.footnote.com/image/#29019877

[Stoney]

This is a partial photo of a damaged P47-N right wing that is being repaired. Notice the stencil?

(Image removed from quote.)

http://www.footnote.com/image/#29019877

Stencils were sometimes applied in the field.  It could have been a squadron/group/AF SOP.  There are a number of annecdotes of pilots purposefully overloading the ammo, so it was done.  The Ie Shima P-47Ns were always having to be weight conscious due to the short field lengths, so I don't think they would have carried the extra weight, especially since they were mostly concerned with maximizing fuel weight.

[Krusty]

Maximum possible but never used.

The P-47s always had something under them, whether it was DTs or bombs. They just had too short a range to fly without the DTs, and if they were that close (later in the war) they were lugging 3 bombs for ground support duties.

You couldn't carry more than 267 rounds of ammo without suffering manuvering restrictions if anything was on the pylons.

So in short they just didn't load more than 267 to avoid restrictions in most cases.

Not the best source, but still mentions reduction to 267 rpg:
http://books.google.com/books?id=hl_jIKALDBMC&lpg=PA24&ots=UTOAkOe30E&dq=P-47%20425%20rounds%20per%20gun&pg=PA23#v=onepage&q&f=false
(page 24)

A much better source... According to this book scan, starting with the D and forward the ammo was reduced to 267 rpg:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4648599/Aircraft-Profile-007-Republic-P47D-Thunderbolt
(4th page)

Another good source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GuuOyzdx1UAC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=%22P-47%22+%22rounds+per+gun%22+ammunition&source=bl&ots=xDJlK3v5Nq&sig=Eigiemz7Vd3irI025485JB9f014&hl=en&ei=_TSvTJXhLYbGlQfuqsXlDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCIQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=%22P-47%22%20%22rounds%20per%20gun%22%20ammunition&f=false

Bottom of page 55 mentions manuver restrictions and 250 (I sometimes think they round these numbers)

Even Joe Baugher's website makes mention of 267 rpg with any load:
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p47_4.html


These planes never were clean. Even the venerable P-47M almost always had drop tanks.


Just because there was "space" for 400-500 rounds doesn't mean the policy was to ever use this many rounds.

Even the flight testing for the P-47C was done with 1800 rounds of ammo (300 rpg, not far off from the 267 figure) as seen here:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-8thaf-tactical.html

Here you see P-47D testing done with "525 lbs of ballast in ammo boxes" -- which at AH weights comes to just about 1700 rounds, close enough to be compared to the 267 rpg loadout:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47d-74616.html

Here you see another test with 6 guns and 300 rpg (not too far from 267 rpg)
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47d-75035-11oct43.html
And another 300 rpg flight test:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47-26167.html

Pre-combat tactical trials of the P-47C

"The aircraft were flown throughout the trials with 6 guns only and 300 rounds per gun, which is the equivalent weight of armament likely to be used during operations in Europe. It is probable that when commencing operations 8 guns with 200 rounds each will be used."

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-afdu.html



So as you can see it doesn't matter how much room there was. What matters was how much was ever really carried. The Ta152 has 1/3 less 20mm rounds from the Fw190D not because of smaller storage but because of policy to save weight. Same goes for the P-47s.

The PTO planes were so heavy that some sources suggested they removed 4 or 6 guns. On one island they barely had enough room to get off the ground and they could barely do so with a "normal" load of ammo. No chance they used overload ammo there.

Which group in the ETO used it eludes me at the moment. It's been mentioned on these forums before. Couldn't find a quick link while copying and pasting all of the above.


What I'd like to see is ONE reference anywhere as to a COMBAT SORTIE being flown with the 425 round loadout. I found one reference that was obviously mixed up because it claimed one guy was flying around with "800 rounds per gun" and must be a mistake. Other than that, please defend this loadout being in the game, please.

[FLS]

Krusty you make a good argument for using 267 rounds per gun in scenarios.

[Squire]

Thats interesting info. It does show the P-47 could load the 425 rpg but it was not advised if it carried wing Drop Tanks or 500 lbers on the wings (1000 lb load). HTC would have to change the loadout mix to have the selected ord be a combined bomb/dt/ammo load that dropped the ammo down to 267 max if a DT or 500 lb bomb was loaded.

The P-47D-11, being a non wing pylon version, I would think would be exempt. The one source stated that "common" loads for the P-47 were 300 and 350 rpg. So they certainly did exceed 267 rnds on ops sometimes. None of the sources stated that it could never load the 425 rpg, or that they were never used.

The one source stated that "common" loads for the P-47 were 300 and 350 rpg. So they certainly did exceed 267 rnds on ops sometimes.  

*There is a problem of course in that many a/c in game had "flight restrictions" if they carried a certain load. Fighter-bombers could not just yank and bank and pull high speed Gs with pylon loaded bombs or DTs. Thats true for all of them, not just the P-47. You cant take up a Spitfire XVI with a pair of 250 bombs and just dogfight to your hearts content either in real life. So thats something they would have to look at applying fairly.*

I could see a 267 load restriction on FSO P-47s though. I will tuck that info away next time I have them in a setup.

[Perrine]

http://books.google.com/books?id=hl_jIKALDBMC&lpg=PA24&ots=UTOAkOe30E&dq=P-47%20425%20rounds%20per%20gun&pg=PA23#v=onepage&q&f=false
(page 24)

If we select HVARS + bombs  + tanks that means ammo rounds must also be reduced to 267 per gun.

This should be programmed for next update!

[FLS]

If we select HVARS + bombs  + tanks that means ammo rounds must also be reduced to 267 per gun.

This should be programmed for next update!

You're talking about 200 lbs per wing in aircraft that weigh 18000-20000 lbs in that configuration.  A 2% difference and you'd likely jettison the drop tanks before any hard maneuvering.

[Stoney]

Lets first examine the historical record.  I have seen multiple accounts of pilots using overload ammo in the Jug.  I don't have access to my best references, but they are out there.  The P-51D POH says it shouldn't carry 1000 lb bombs, but they did on Iwo, hence, we have it in game.

[EDO43]

We have the 267 round option w/8 fifties...I'm gonna try it out now and see what kind of difference it makes.

[Krusty]

Lets first examine the historical record.  I have seen multiple accounts of pilots using overload ammo in the Jug.  I don't have access to my best references, but they are out there.  The P-51D POH says it shouldn't carry 1000 lb bombs, but they did on Iwo, hence, we have it in game.

I'd like to see some of those, if you can dig them up some time. I want to know what the mission profile was, why they might choose more ammo, and whether it was in fact a combat sortie or a ferry sortie (I've read 1 or 2 anecdotes that when they moved from Britain to France they loaded these babies down to ferry ammo in the wings, but these weren't combat missions)

P.S. 300 is a common number but I don't know if they're rounding to the nearest hundred, or if it's an estimate, or what... 267 seems to be a set standard and it shows in other aicraft as well. 350 I've seen tossed around but never seen a good reference to its use, so I am guessing that's also a high-end estimate. 267 is a known loadout, for sure. I seriously think there's enough of an issue here that warrants possible removal from the game of the overload setup.


Example: Our 109G-4 has no gondolas, why? Because the gondola versions were a very small number with a special factory-installed wing that could take the gondolas, and even then you couldn't be sure they were used.

Parallel to P-47: Why remove the 425 rpg load? Because it was almost never used, and when used you couldn't carry anything underneath the wings, and almost every mission had P47s with things under the wings heavily suggesting it was rarely if ever used.

Just to name one example.