Author Topic: Water as fuel, more controversial science.  (Read 1719 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2011, 09:52:08 AM »
IIRC the Japanese car uses a catalyst to produce hydrogen from the water. The said catalyst requires more energy to make than it will ever produce and about same goes for the price. So eco friendly it is not.

 i think that's how the honda clarity works.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2011, 09:53:24 AM »
i think that's how the honda clarity works.

Flat WRONG. Clarity has on-board H2 storage.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2011, 09:54:26 AM »
Cheaper than oil?  In what quantities?  There are no hydrogen wells, so you have to expend energy (burn oil, coal, whatever) to crack hydrogen out of water.  So there is no way in heck that hydrogen is any cheaper than the cheapest other energy source, because you MUST expend energy to get hydrogen.  There is simply no other way, since hydrogen doesn't naturally occur.

Even if there is a designed bacteria to use biological processes to get the hydrogen, that is STILL using energy to get it.

So, nope.  You still can't get something for nothing, and anyone claiming hydrogen is cheaper than [insert favorite whipping boy energy source] is full of it.  There are no naturally occurring hydrogen wells, so you have to get it from another source, and that takes energy from another fuel source.  So the cost of hydrogen will always be the cost of the fuel burned to get the energy, plus the cost of power conversion inefficiencies, plus the cost of the manufacturing processes used.  Even "free" solar and "free" wind power have extremely high up-front manufacturing expenses requiring... you got it, energy from another source, to produce. 

No such thing as a free lunch.  Hydrogen as a power source is no different than a battery or solar cell...  You've done nothing but expend energy in one place and transported it elsewhere for use.

 there is this too....

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/norway-hynor-project.htm

 i think they used solar powered electrolysis machines to separate the hydrogen.....
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2011, 09:58:20 AM »
there is this too....

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/norway-hynor-project.htm

 i think they used solar powered electrolysis machines to separate the hydrogen.....

Solar-powered electrolysis is one of the WORST for cost there is. Why? Because of the high cost of PV solar cells. You'd be better off with nuke - unless you want to cover Nebraska in PV panels.

Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2011, 10:00:34 AM »
there is this too....

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/norway-hynor-project.htm

 i think they used solar powered electrolysis machines to separate the hydrogen.....

If you bothered to read your own link you'd see they use hydro to generate the electricity to decompose the water.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2011, 10:00:45 AM »
Flat WRONG. Clarity has on-board H2 storage.

hence the "i think".  :aok
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2011, 10:02:43 AM »
If you bothered to read your own link you'd see they use hydro to generate the electricity to decompose the water.

i put that up here quick......i'm up front doing estimates. there was a link somewhere showing how they used solar power. even if they're using hydro......still not burning oil though.
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Offline dedalos

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Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Megalodon

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2011, 10:01:20 PM »
If you bothered to read your own link you'd see they use hydro to generate the electricity to decompose the water.


California Hydrogen Power Plant

"The project would gasify petroleum coke (or blends of petroleum coke and coal, as needed) to produce hydrogen to fuel a combustion turbine operating in combined cycle mode. The gasification component would produce 180 million standard cubic feet per day (MMSCFD) of hydrogen to feed a 390 megawatt (MW) gross combined cycle plant providing California with low-carbon baseload power to the grid. The gasification component would also capture approximately 130 MMSCFD of carbon dioxide (or approximately 90 percent at steady-state operation) which would be transported and used for enhanced oil recovery and sequestration (storage) in the Elk Hills Oil Field Unit. "

4 way winner ...
1. Burn big oil byproduct  Coke
2. Permanent Sequestration of C02
3. Pushes More  Oil out of well
4. Produces Hydrogen for Turbine for Clean Electricity

This will whip the pants off of Nuclear.

Carbon Capture Storage with Enhanced Oil Recovery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcbyVcye7qE
 :aok

Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline CAP1

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2011, 10:12:43 PM »
Solar-powered electrolysis is one of the WORST for cost there is. Why? Because of the high cost of PV solar cells. You'd be better off with nuke - unless you want to cover Nebraska in PV panels.



funny you mention that....was tlaking with a friend today, and he said the smea thing........
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2011, 10:13:59 PM »
but here's my question? it's probably stupid, but i'll ask anyway......

why are they concerning themselves with extracting hydrogen from oil or petrolium, when it's in water, which is pretty much everywhere?
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2011, 11:53:21 PM »
but here's my question? it's probably stupid, but i'll ask anyway......

why are they concerning themselves with extracting hydrogen from oil or petrolium, when it's in water, which is pretty much everywhere?

There is a company named Solar Systems of Hawthorne in Victoria, Australia building the world’s first direct solar to hydrogen commercial power plant.

“Electrolysis is used to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, but present technology is quite inefficient, even using solar power. At room temperature every 100 watts of electricity produces just 60 watts of hydrogen."

"In Australia Mr. John Lasich’s technique heats the water to 1000 degrees Celsius, a temperature at which the process delivers 140 watts worth of hydrogen for every 100 watts of electricity.”

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/hydrogen-fuel-production/direct-solar-to-hydrogen-plant-goes-up-in-australia/

Abstract:http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy05osti/37093.pdf
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 12:46:42 AM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2011, 08:10:39 AM »

California Hydrogen Power Plant

"The project would gasify petroleum coke (or blends of petroleum coke and coal, as needed) to produce hydrogen to fuel a combustion turbine operating in combined cycle mode. The gasification component would produce 180 million standard cubic feet per day (MMSCFD) of hydrogen to feed a 390 megawatt (MW) gross combined cycle plant providing California with low-carbon baseload power to the grid. The gasification component would also capture approximately 130 MMSCFD of carbon dioxide (or approximately 90 percent at steady-state operation) which would be transported and used for enhanced oil recovery and sequestration (storage) in the Elk Hills Oil Field Unit. "

4 way winner ...
1. Burn big oil byproduct  Coke
2. Permanent Sequestration of C02
3. Pushes More  Oil out of well
4. Produces Hydrogen for Turbine for Clean Electricity

This will whip the pants off of Nuclear.

Carbon Capture Storage with Enhanced Oil Recovery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcbyVcye7qE
 :aok



Dream on. This turkey was planned to be in operation by now but has slipped back to 2015. The cost is ballooning thw whole while and it's source is quite dirty (stimulus funds to BP plus a rate hike for the customers). As for the sequestration, you could do the same with any hydrocarb-burning system. This one is not special in that sense and that portion of the developemnt is all taxpayer-funded.

I haven't seen a decent cost analysis on it yet but suspect it will, if it's ever actually pushed through permitting, that process now in its fifth year, deliver a matginally higher cost per kwh than existing.

Otherwise, I'll just say that this big dream is a fine example of the best that the BP/DOE consortium can produce - which is kind of like calling it modern art.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2011, 08:27:56 AM »
There is a company named Solar Systems of Hawthorne in Victoria, Australia building the world’s first direct solar to hydrogen commercial power plant.

“Electrolysis is used to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, but present technology is quite inefficient, even using solar power. At room temperature every 100 watts of electricity produces just 60 watts of hydrogen."

"In Australia Mr. John Lasich’s technique heats the water to 1000 degrees Celsius, a temperature at which the process delivers 140 watts worth of hydrogen for every 100 watts of electricity.”

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/hydrogen-fuel-production/direct-solar-to-hydrogen-plant-goes-up-in-australia/

Abstract:http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy05osti/37093.pdf


The idea makes a certain amount of intuitive sense - be applying more heat energy to water, you should be able to crack it via electrolysis more easily. Note that those who dispute the energy balance of 140/100 only can do so by neglecting the large slug of heat energy applied to the feed stock of water.

OTOH, the only thing I can find on this plant is a  couple of press releases that claim construction started in 08 or 09. I haven't seen anything that says this is anything more than experimental nor that it has successfully proven the process out as commercially viable.

File under "vaporware" for now. Then take a look at infiniacorp.com. Last I visited them, they had an order bank from the dreamers in Spain and FRG for on the order of billions for their solar-to-kinetic dish/free-piston system and were preparing to go to scale production. That technology is fabulous and will, I'm certain, find commercial success, just probably not in Spain and the FRG.

Of course, this was before the Spanish "green jobs" program was demonstrated to be the equivalent of a worthless rathole in which to dispose of Spain's national wealth. But hey, we'll repeat that process in the US and this time it'll be a roaring success, right?

There's nothing like divorcing a venture from the bottom line to ensure its failure. People tend to forget, the beauty of "jobs" in private-sector ventures is that they self-fund - because profitable. Or, to paraphrase Thatcher, the only problem with massive transfer-backed schemes is that they tend to run out of other people's money.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline icepac

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Re: Water as fuel, more controversial science.
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2011, 10:00:04 AM »
Still cheaper to make the processing plant separate from the vehicle itself.