AXIS Frame 01 AAR

[Viper61]

Viper61 here AXIS CIC Frame 01:

  My plan was more defensive then offensive.  Also it almost had to be as the AXIS had 2 targets to strike and 4 to defend.

  The Defensive Packages were stronger at Frankfurt and A35 as they were the more front line bases and I expected stronger ALLIED efforts at these 2 bases.  Also there was the possibility of 2nd or late frame strikes.  These bases were defended by 3 squads each except for Frankfurt which had 4 squads.

  The Strike Packages were lighter with 2 squads each and set up as JABO runs and were to strike by H+60.  I also had late frame Ar-234's headed to both targets to conduct high level bombing of these targets at H+75-85.

   Everything on our side seemed to go as planned.  I know the Strike Packages had it the hardest.  My plan was to have heavy defenses and go for bomber kills and win by points.  Watching the numbers through the Frame they seemed to be fairly even throughout until near the end where I suspect many pilots started dropping AC for tanks on both sides.  It looked like there were more AXIS AC in the air near the end.

   I apologize for not signing out at the end.  Had a Disco with 2 minutes left and couldn't get back in.  Also I like to <S> the squads for their efforts one and all.

 All the AXIS squads did a great job in my opinion.  BIG  <S> for that.  Turn out was better than I expected given the Hurricane and Labor Day Weekend.  I hope all had fun and I will see you all next week. 

[Squire]

I also had late frame Ar-234's headed to both targets to conduct high level bombing of these targets at H+75-85.

You did have the Arados initially attack by T+60 yes? you cant leave any a/c to make their runs later than that as per FSO rules. I just want to make sure I understand what you ordered.

[elc7367b]

Oooops!

[Viper61]

Squire:

  Both of the AXIS assigned targets were attacked by H+60.
            2 squads to each target by the AXIS Op Ord. meeting the +20 special rule - JABO runs using 190's.
            Attacks happening probably around H+45.
            I know Antwerp was hit as I received the BDA.
            The Saarbrucker Strike Package ran into a very stiff city defense just prior to their drop and I never received BDA from them.

   The Ar234's were assigned their primary mission to be a late frame strike asset.  I was holding them in reserve and in position to strike the target with the least amount of damage after the initial strikes BDA.  The Ar234's were split and vectored to each target given that the BDA at Antwerp was light and No BDA came from Saarbrucker.  They hit both targets about H+70 to H+85, RTB'ed and towered out before Frames end.

   If I have voilated the rules in any way please let me know.

[APDrone]

sigh.. so now we have to refine the rules.. AGAIN..

"- All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame by all who have been assigned to attack that target. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that the main attacks reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule. "

By withholding the bombers, you denied the defenders targets and forced them to wait past T+60 for their targets to arrive.

When we saw the AR234s in 'forms', we knew that they hadn't bombed anything in the first hour, since you lose your drones on rearm.

Also, did a full squad ( I assume 190s of some type ) of the initial attackers hit Antwerp, or was it just a handful of the fighters? We were at 30k tangling with the Doras and never saw anything actually hit Antwerp on the first run.. tho we did see the damage when we went to rearm.

[Bannor]

IMHO,
Vipers use of the 234's was an appropriate use of his resources. It sounds like he had credible forces attacking assigned targets within the time frame. His intent was to use his 234's to second strike 1 or both targets depending on BDA. I don't see this as denying defenders of targets anymore than having a fighter sweep come in and bringing the defenders down to a lower altitude for higher bombers. Defenders need to be prepared for a minimum of 90 min. to defend their fields against secondary attacks. It sounds like he was using the strength of the speed of his bombers to ensure they survived the frame and to inflict as much damage as possible with less risk.

Now, if the rules are that every offensive aircraft is to strike within the t+60 time frame, well then he was off by 10 to 15 min. That being the case, a person should keep his/her  'reserves' closer to the action to be able to strike a target that may have been heavily defended and has decimated the strike that came in initially.

When the battle is raging, I think the CiC should have more of a free hand to move his/her assets to areas that need them the most.  For example: Lets say FATE, the 412th and the 327th are to attack an airfield. The 412th conducts a fighter sweep, with the 327th and FATE coming into the field in bombers from 2 different directions or perhaps FATE is 5 min behind the 327th . The fighter sweep is a success, the 327th levels the field leaving the ack for the 412th to handle. FATE has no need to waste ords on the field so they are instructed to drop on a different field where the attack didnt go so well, and FATE drops their ords at T+65. Is this a violation of the rules, or is it a smart move by the CiC to use his/her assets for maximum results?

If you think the rules have been violated, then by all means penalize the Axis, since I was on the Allied side and the Axis did very well indeed overall. But I feel he was trying to use his assets in a smart and strategic way, with no ill intent other than to inflict as much damage as possible.

 

[Squire]

Ok.

First off I know Viper is a stand up guy and I am in no way implying that he deliberately did wrong. I think he was trying to be a creative CiC and thats not a sin.

However...and this is a good reminder to everybody who does CiC duty: You cannot task any assets to initial strikes that have orders to attack later than T+60.

If you wanted the Arados (or anything else) tasked as a strike a/c to come in as a 2nd wave...you have the initial strikes done by T+50 if possible? with the Arados coming in at T+60 say (at the latest).  If that kind of thing isn't possible because of the range to target? thats just too bad. The rule must be followed. In that case perhaps rtb some assets and relaunch to make 2nd strike time permitting. Those two examples are both legal.

We have to be consistant on this point guys. FSO is a 2 hr event and we have to "get on with it" re the strikes and T+60 is it. Past that mark we end up playing fuel games and time to rtb games with the defenders (ie they dont have enough frame time to chase the bombers before having to land at frame end or just plain running out of gas) which is why the rule is there.

I consider the matter closed.

Glad frame 1 went well long weekend and all...looks like a good turnout! Cyas next week. 

[CptA]

Purple Strike AAR.

Nightmares began the night with 8 Fw190D-9 JABOs, and USMC with 5 Fw190A-8 JABOs and 2 Bf109G-14s.
Low pilot turn-out due to U.S. Labor Day Holiday weekend conflict.

Our orders were to hit targets in the Industrial Center of the City at sector 6,5,4.
Nightmares were lead Squad of a 2 Squad Attack. Projected total strength for the 2 squads was 18-25. Actual combined strength was 15.

We were directed to conduct our attack from relatively high altitude (+20k), and time our attacks to occur at appx. T+45, then withdraw to secondary defensive positions in sector 9,7,7. Orders indicated that priority of effort was to Air-to-Air Defense rather than Attack.

We lifted at 22:39 and turned to a SW course towards the target 5 1/3 sectors away.
To maximize fuel range and allow us to meet the T+45 strike time, we began a 1000 FPM cruise climb at reduced power settings (2700 RPM, 1.2 Ata).

We continued to maintained the power settings thru the initial power drop-off, and until the supercharger kicked back in at appx. 14-15k. We climbed to 20k where power again began to fall off, and we leveled at 20k in the vicinity of sector 7,5,8 (61 mins fuel remaining).

We continued to the target on reduced power settings of 2500 RPM and 1.1 Ata (74 Mins fuel).

We began coordinating with the second squad, and were about to orbit at an Rally Point outside of Radar range, when we encountered what we initially believed to be a single Spit XVI scout at our 2 o'clock and appx. 24-25k altitude. We reported the contact to the second squad, and immediately went direct to the target at Full Power (24 mins fuel range). We soon encountered additional Spit XVIs and P-51Ds as they dropped down from their 30k+ patrol altitudes.

We took our first casualty near the target at 23:07 and began our drops. Dropping our single 500Kg bomb from high altitude was relatively ineffective, and we  destroyed only 10 objects. We began our withdrawl at an appx. altitude of 14-15k, but soon dropped to the deck to avoid the extremely numerous defenders.

USMC arrived arrived over the target appx. 5 mins later, but only a single Fw190A-8 made it to target, with 1 object destroyed.
 
I picked up a Spit and a Mustang on my high Six, and their 5-10k altitude advantage played in their favor. They followed me for appx. 1 1/2 sectors as I attempted to extend in a rapid decent towards the deck. The Spit fell back, but the Mustang continued to bore in until I was forced to evade. I might have avoided or out-fought the Mustang, but the Spit took advantage of the Mustang's work and came back in. I was outside my best performance envelope, and he soon put me in the bag.

The remaining Nightmares and USMC RTB'd at A44 and A46 respectively. 2 Nightmares re-armed for a second strike, returned to the target and destroyed an additional 5 objects. We suffered 1 additional loss while withdrawing, with only a single Nightmare (FiLtH) returning from the second strike.

Commendations to FiLtH for leading and surviving the 2nd strike, and to Turbo for his 2 aerial victories.

Mission Summary: Pilots 15, Kills 4, Obj Destroyed 16, Deaths 9, Captured 4, landed 4.

CptA
Strike Commander

[WxMan]

Ok.

First off I know Viper is a stand up guy and I am in no way implying that he deliberately did wrong. I think he was trying to be a creative CiC and thats not a sin.

However...and this is a good reminder to everybody who does CiC duty: You cannot task any assets to initial strikes that have orders to attack later than T+60.

If you wanted the Arados (or anything else) tasked as a strike a/c to come in as a 2nd wave...you have the initial strikes done by T+50 if possible? with the Arados coming in at T+60 say (at the latest).  If that kind of thing isn't possible because of the range to target? thats just too bad. The rule must be followed. In that case perhaps rtb some assets and relaunch to make 2nd strike time permitting. Those two examples are both legal.

We have to be consistant on this point guys. FSO is a 2 hr event and we have to "get on with it" re the strikes and T+60 is it. Past that mark we end up playing fuel games and time to rtb games with the defenders (ie they dont have enough frame time to chase the bombers before having to land at frame end or just plain running out of gas) which is why the rule is there.

I consider the matter closed.

Glad frame 1 went well long weekend and all...looks like a good turnout! Cyas next week. 

I vehemently disagree with your conclusion Squire. The rule from section 6 simply states

- Frame CiC's must assign squads to hit all targets within the first hour of the frame.

First of all, no where in the rules stated on site dictates the size of the force. (However, this is sometimes added by the designer.) Secondly no where in the above mentioned rule states that all assests to a target must be commited in the first hour.

I agree what are written rules have to be followed to the letter. But to have the CM's or the community add additional stipulations by unwriitten fiat or to follow some nebulous "spriit of the rule" is rediculous.  When designing a battle plan, a CiC only has the rules that are written on the AH Event site, and at times addendum rules in the Frame Objectives to guide him.  Your reminder to CiC's do not fall in that category.

A good CiC whether new or experienced will always review the rules on the AH Event Site. So, if you want your "reminder" to be observed, then CHANGE THE FREAKING RULE to reflect it.

[Hopper]

by all who have been assigned to attack that target

Thats not stated in the rules

[Bannor]

When the battle is raging, I think the CiC should have more of a free hand to move his/her assets to areas that need them the most.  For example: Lets say FATE, the 412th and the 327th are to attack an airfield. The 412th conducts a fighter sweep, with the 327th and FATE coming into the field in bombers from 2 different directions or perhaps FATE is 5 min behind the 327th . The fighter sweep is a success, the 327th levels the field leaving the ack for the 412th to handle. FATE has no need to waste ords on the field so they are instructed to drop on a different field where the attack didnt go so well, and FATE drops their ords at T+65. Is this a violation of the rules, or is it a smart move by the CiC to use his/her assets for maximum results?


 

I would like an answer to this question please. I understand the time and target assignment and the credible force needed to perform said task. But if the target has taken a significant amount of damage from a portion of the attacking force, can they be diverted to another target without being penalized for breaking the t+60 rule? I don't wish to cause any problems here, but it makes more sense to use your assets in a different way than you intended when the situation calls for it. That is the fluidity of the war. Adapt to the situation as it occurs.

[Squire]

I don't think its a good idea to get into a lot of what-ifs as they go on without end. Basically we are looking for compliance in the spirit and letter of the rules here. Can CiCs make a call as above? I don't see why not and from what I understand thats happened in the past. As long as we are not seeing deliberate premeditated tactics to circumvent the T+60 and credible force requirements we are ok. Assign a seperate strike to each target, have them hit by the first hour and go from there. Past that we are looking for gross violations of the rules that are clearly intended to get around that and they wont be hard to spot if thats done. 

[WxMan]

First of all Squire the spirit and intent of the rules are not always as written. If you want compliance to the spirit, then write the rules as such. It's the only thing that a CiC can go by. Secondly, there is no mention of a credible force on the AH Event site. It is a carry over from only a minority of events by a designer that specificaly stated as such.  If you want to implement a credible force rule, then put it on the site. 

I'm tired of the CM's stating rules that have not been offically posted. The letter of the rules are just that. It's what you can or cannot do. Put them on the site where you tell all CiC's to go to.

[Bannor]

Thank you. I am satisfied with your answer.
 
Yes, we can all think of a lot of 'what ifs', but they are a reality when the game is in motion. The CiC is responsible for laying out a plan that best conforms with the rules that are in place. Sometimes a situation will present itself where the CiC has to decide what to do with their assets because of what is or has happened during the course of the first hour. The second hour is easier as far as where to send your assets and what your capabilities are at that point.

 I think you are correct that if gross violations occur they will be easy to spot. In this case with the AR234s being held in reserve past t+60, it sticks out, as that was the intent of the CiC. However, his use of the bombers in a 'reserve' role is called into question because they were not assigned a specific target but were to attack the target that needed it the most. I have always wanted to use a squad in reserve for just that reason. In real life the military have their reserves and commit them into the battle when/where they are needed both offensively and defensively. I know the 'spirit' of the rules and the game are to ensure we all have fun and see action in a time constrained event. But this is an element of war that is, in my view, missing from FSO.

Thanks again for answering my question. I hope you don't think I'm beating you up about what has or what could happen. I just like to have a good discussion about it to help clarify what has or could happen and then perhaps effect change in what we are doing or re-enforce what we already have.

<<S>>

Bannor 

[AKP]

Bannor...

There are ways to have a reserve force and still adhere to the T+60 rule and its intent. 

Example: Lets say that due to logistics, a larger squad is assigned to attack a smaller target.  Knowing that the target will be easily destroyed and not all of the ordinance expended on it, the CiC can assign a secondary target to the squad.  Or... keep them as an "ace in the hole" to be used for another target that didnt take enough damage.  Keeping in mind that they MUST hit their primary target by T+60... AND that their secondary target must also be hit by another attack force as a primary target before T+60 in order to satisfy the rule.

I know its not what you are fully referring to, but given the rules and the intent of FSO, this would serve both purposes.