Author Topic: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?  (Read 6261 times)

Offline artik

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STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« on: January 09, 2014, 08:38:51 AM »
It looks like STOBAR (Short Take Off But Arrested Recovery) carriers layout is growing thanks to Russian designers:

- The INS Vikramaditya that was modified from STOVL carrier, now equipped with latest MiG-29Ks tha are quite capable aircrafts with updated engines, ASEA Radar, fly-by-wire, glass cockpit etc.
- The Admiral Kuznetsov that was operational for a long period with Su-33 and should receive MiG-29Ks as well.
- The Chinese Liaoning (originally Russian carrier)
- The newly designed INS Vikrant is also STOBAR, and it wasn't build by Russians.

Actually STOBAR operations were the vast majority of the operations until the beginning of the jet age (basically all WW2 carriers operated as STOBAR), now with modern fighters with a high thrust to weight ratio it becomes quite feasible and looks like due to lower cost and operation simplicity quite attractive option.

Of course it has obvious limitations like payload... on the other hand STOVL layout has exactly the same problem as well. If you look at F-35B or Harrier, the MiG-29K looks like a better option especially when you can buy 4-5 migs on a price of one F-35B.

BTW absolutely beautiful video of MiG-29K trials on Vikramaditya: http://theaviationist.com/2013/10/11/mig-29k-new-video/   (note at 1:47 the takeoff with two air-ground/sea test weapons and a fuel tank on the center line)

So do you think STOBAR makes a comeback and we see more such carriers in future (of course not in US navy with its mega carriers)?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 10:43:41 AM by artik »
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 09:43:25 AM »
Can they launch and land at the same time? How many birds can they launch within say 10 minutes? What would an Alpha Striker package look like?

I am just wondering if they have the ability to sustain the same operational tempo as our Nimitz Class CVNs. Good post.

boo
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Offline artik

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 10:17:02 AM »
Can they launch and land at the same time? How many birds can they launch within say 10 minutes? What would an Alpha Striker package look like?

I am just wondering if they have the ability to sustain the same operational tempo as our Nimitz Class CVNs. Good post.

boo

Depends...

If you take Russian carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, it has 3 takeoff positions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ussr_cv.svg two that do not interfere with landing deck can lanch planes and one longer for heavier loads takeoff that does interfere - same would be for the Chinese one from the same class.

On the other hand the smaller Vikramaditya that is modified STOVL carrier and future Vikrant (that is even smaller) can't as their lanch position shared with the landing deck.

See:

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:INS_Vikrant_CGI.png
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:INS_Vikramaditya_(R33)_with_a_Sea_Harrier.jpg (note the Yellow lines for takeoff)

Another interesting point is that lanching an aircraft with Skyjump is much simpler procedure and probably can be performed with higher takeoff per lanch position ratio - think of an airbase with a single runway.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 10:42:56 AM by artik »
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Slate

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 10:40:40 AM »
  STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) is a system used for the launch and recovery of aircraft from the deck of an aircraft carrier, combining elements of both short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) without catapult-assisted take-off but with arrested recovery (CATOBAR).

Aircraft launch under their own power using a ski-jump to assist take-off (rather than using a catapult like most carriers). However, these are conventional, rather than STOVL aircraft, and thus require arrestor wires to land on the ship. The STOBAR system is simpler to build than CATOBAR — but it works only with light, and lightly armed, fighter aircraft that have a high thrust to weight ratio. As of 2013, it has only been used regularly on Russian, Indian, and Chinese carriers.
  Sorry had to google term I'm a Civi.  :bolt:

   ...and stop saying "Lunch" you are making me hungry.  :old:
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Offline artik

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2014, 10:44:30 AM »
Quote
...and stop saying "Lunch" you are making me hungry


 :rofl

Fixed :-)
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Slate

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2014, 10:48:21 AM »
 :rofl

 :rofl

   Still not fixed lol   "Launch"    Good Info on the STOBAR carriers though.  :aok
I always wanted to fight an impossible battle against incredible odds.

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 11:18:32 AM »
These strike me as great, low level, power projection platforms. They could easily park off a low-threat coast and keep 2-4 birds on station all day, taking into consideration rotations. As far as an alpha strike, max 20 birds? Compared to the US, which could sustain 200+ sorites a day with an alpha strike of 50+ birds. +/-.

These carriers are essentially Light-CVs comparable, contemporary to the Independence Class from WW2 or some of the Brit small CVs like Hermes, etc. Good addition to a fleet, long way to go before it compares to a Nimitz/Ford.

Boo
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Offline artik

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2014, 02:52:22 PM »
These strike me as great, low level, power projection platforms. They could easily park off a low-threat coast and keep 2-4 birds on station all day, taking into consideration rotations. As far as an alpha strike, max 20 birds? Compared to the US, which could sustain 200+ sorites a day with an alpha strike of 50+ birds. +/-.

Actually interesting that Ford class carrier designed to generate 140-160 sorties a day with 220 as peak and it is considered an improvement over Nimitz. Given a ~75 aircraft on-board it represents ~3 sorties a day per aircraft at peak and 2 sorties per aircraft normally.

For land based air force such numbers are quite pathetic. It is a daily routine to fly 3 sorties a day for land based aircraft and handle 5-6 sorties a day reasonable easily at peak requirements.

I was quite surprised by the numbers, but I assume it is due to lack of free space on the flight deck to maintain the planes limits the sortie generation ability.

These carriers are essentially Light-CVs comparable, contemporary to the Independence Class from WW2 or some of the Brit small CVs like Hermes, etc. Good addition to a fleet, long way to go before it compares to a Nimitz/Ford.

Boo

The point, that nobody besides US has or probably needs such a power projection. Given 10 Nimitz class carriers it is basically possible to blew up any medium sized country on short alert without a problem (of course having good foreign diplomacy would make these 10 carries actually much more useful... ok I'm not going there so the this thread wouldn't get locked :bolt: )

Many other countries just do not need such type of power (especially when it costs a small fortune), however having pinpoint strike ability and managing air superiority over a fleet is actually very useful if not critical (Falklands war as an example...)
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 02:54:19 PM »
Actually interesting that Ford class carrier designed to generate 140-160 sorties a day with 220 as peak and it is considered an improvement over Nimitz. Given a ~75 aircraft on-board it represents ~3 sorties a day per aircraft at peak and 2 sorties per aircraft normally.

For land based air force such numbers are quite pathetic. It is a daily routine to fly 3 sorties a day for land based aircraft and handle 5-6 sorties a day reasonable easily at peak requirements.

I was quite surprised by the numbers, but I assume it is due to lack of free space on the flight deck to maintain the planes limits the sortie generation ability.

The point, that nobody besides US has or probably needs such a power projection. Given 10 Nimitz class carriers it is basically possible to blew up any medium sized country on short alert without a problem (of course having good foreign diplomacy would make these 10 carries actually much more useful... ok I'm not going there so the this thread wouldn't get locked :bolt: )

Many other countries just do not need such type of power (especially when it costs a small fortune), however having pinpoint strike ability and managing air superiority over a fleet is actually very useful if not critical (Falklands war as an example...)

Great info and summary. I concur!

boo
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George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline GScholz

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 03:06:58 PM »
These strike me as great, low level, power projection platforms. They could easily park off a low-threat coast and keep 2-4 birds on station all day, taking into consideration rotations. As far as an alpha strike, max 20 birds? Compared to the US, which could sustain 200+ sorites a day with an alpha strike of 50+ birds. +/-.

These carriers are essentially Light-CVs comparable, contemporary to the Independence Class from WW2 or some of the Brit small CVs like Hermes, etc. Good addition to a fleet, long way to go before it compares to a Nimitz/Ford.

Boo

But then you have to consider the cost. Do you think it is better to have one super carrier, or two/three light carriers with a total aircraft complement of equal size?
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 06:47:12 PM »
That is some slow launches! In the time it took for that jet to run out and get in the air a Nimitz class would have launched two. I spent a few years on the Eisenhower (CVN69) and ops were run at a leisurely pace and they only used 2 cats. Even so it didn't take long to have a wing in the air.

I know that if they wanted they could launch a LOT faster. With the deck as big as it is and the use of all of those elevators they could move aircraft below deck as well as on top to position for launch from all 4 cats. Remember, what you read is the information that they let out, not necessarily what is really true. 

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 09:29:10 PM »


There is no substitute for better technology.

A Modern super carrier with F35 is on another level beyond any STOBAR CV.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2014, 10:24:26 PM »
But is it better than three STOBAR carriers with F-35s?
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Offline artik

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2014, 01:28:43 AM »
Quote
A Modern super carrier [snip] is on another level beyond any STOBAR CV

There is no doubt that a super carrier has much higher capabilities. Nobody declines this.

Quote
A Modern super carrier with F35

Currently is still fiction as F-35C can't land on carrier yet... They hadn't fixed its hook. Actually as of December 2013 Lockheed has installed an improved hook on a test aircraft but hadn't stated testing yet. which is even more sad as 14 F-35C variants are already produced.


Quote
But then you have to consider the cost. Do you think it is better to have one super carrier, or two/three light carriers with a total aircraft complement of equal size?

It actually depends...

Lets assume that operating (i.e. sending to a task for specific mission) 1 carrier x 90 aircaft is cheaper than operating 2 carriers x 45 aircraft or 3 carriers x 30 aircraft (which BTW I'm not entirely sure about) in the same manner that it is cheaper to operate one mega tanker/container ship than 2 small tankers or container ships.

However the question is, what budget can you afford as a nation? Can you afford 5-10 super carriers? Than yes, it is probably better to operate super carriers in CATOBAR configuration.

But lets assume you can afford a 1 super carrier x90 planes or 2 smaller carriers x 30 planes. (I especially reduce the numbers to adjust for a budget), than the question is different.

(a) you are probably not operating both carriers together, in many cases it is enough to send a one carrier for a mission (so it reduces cost per request significantly
(b) you can always put a carrier to a dry dock for overhaul and you still can provide decent power of 1/2 of the force at immediate readiness.
(c) if you operate two carriers together you significantly reduce the risk through redundancy - as even if one of the carriers is hit and need some time to repair the damages (even if it takes several hours) the 2nd one remains fully operational.

Quote
But is it better than three STOBAR carriers with F-35s?

I would rephrase it, it is better to have a Super carrier vs 3 STOBAR carriers with same class of aircraft, I personally think that 3 smaller STOBAR provide much higher flexibility.

There are two major limitations of STOBAR:

1. The ability to handle cargo and AEW planes - they all currently operate a helicopters for such a role that has lower range/payload/ceiling etc.
2. The strike payload, range.

The first one can probably be addressed with VC-22. There are already discussions about providing a AEW capabilities for VC-22. And the second one seems to be less problematic as well when you read about the capabilities of MiG-29K it looks like an amazing aircraft - it takeoffs with reasonable amount of air-to-ground weapons and with a drop tank (see the videos above), it has buddy refueling pods, has all the 4++ generation avionics, excellent A2A weapons and good performance like all modern fighters - so it looks like being as good as anything that operates from CATOBAR.

So probably yes, the 3 or 2 carriers maybe a better option. But it really depends on your goals and your budget. For US with its 10x100,000 tonne carriers it is probably to have what they have now.



Another interesting issue I thought about it. Currently all operating CATOBAR carriers are either:

- Nuclear powered (all US Nimitz class or French Charles de Gaulle)
- Powered with steam boilers like Brazilian São Paulo

That both have steam "for free"

Now modern ships usually operate on Gas Turbines and/or Diesel. So without EMALS or built in steam generator it is very hard to have CATOBAR carrier...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:31:05 AM by artik »
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: STOBAR Aircraft Carrier Comeback?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2014, 08:35:32 AM »
I think your over all strategic objective is more important then is your amount of CVs vis-a-vis STOBARS vs Super Carriers.

Russia built them because, hard as it is to believe, their surface Navy played a supporting role to their submarine Navy. Their entire strategic objective was to provide cover for their ship killer submarines to break out into open ocean. They didnt need super carriers, and supporting ships, due to the cost outlay; To fight a battle they didnt want to fight and would surely lose anyways.

Building one carrier of any type doesnt really make sense because the thing will be in dry dock part of the time and what if you really need it then?

If I remember right only America and France operate Catobar CVs. Last I heard England changed their minds again about their Lizzies being built now. I would argue all three countries have missions and responsibilities that would warrant standard aircraft carriers. China and India are both moving from sea denial to sea control but both have limited areas of concern. They have no need to sail an airport to the other side of the world.

And THAT is the answer to the question. Not 3 vs 1, but do you even need the 1?
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