Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: RTHolmes on February 01, 2012, 05:51:10 AM
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Ive noticed that although the XIV prototypes and production/converted Mk.XIIIs had standard wing tips, most of the pics I can find of high-back XIVs in service show clipped wings.
The RAF, however. decided that [skin buckling on the wing] had to be avoided and issued instructions that all Mk XIVs were to be retrospectively fitted with clipped wings
given the improvement in capability the XVI's clipped wing gives compared to the (very similar) unclipped VIII, clipping the XIV might finally make it perk-worthy.
anyone have more evidence either way?
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/414sqdn-spit14.jpg)
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Perked, bubble canopy, I would pay 20-25 perks for that.
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low-back XIVs were rather rare - less than 10% iirc, most looked like this:
(http://www.spitfiresite.com/photos/historic/uploaded_images/spitfires-raf-woodvale-1-750050.jpg)
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The Spit 14 need not be perked at all, but of the powers to be think it *really* needs a perks it certainly doesn't deserve the price it has now. The Spit 16 is more of a threat than the Spit 14 ever will be (turns better, rolls better, more stable, carries 1k ordnance). The only place the Spit 14 really shines better is above 24k altitude.
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Ever come up against one above 24K? If you have, then you probably know why it's perked.
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Ever come up against one above 24K? If you have, then you probably know why it's perked.
Indeed, I've surprised many at the high alts.
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Find me a wartime shot of a clipped XIV and I'd support it. If there were any, it was very few and I've yet to see a photo that's not postwar. Seems like once they moved to a more tactical role postwar with the increase in RAF jet units, the XIVs got thier wings clipped. But at the end of WW2 they were being used as interceptors with full span wings and the IXs and XVIs were the clipped Spits flying the ground attack.
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Ever come up against one above 24K? If you have, then you probably know why it's perked.
From tour to tour I love getting a spit 14 up to 25k and wait for buff raids to tangle with the escorts, most generally forget the spit14 in this role,
Its climb rate is outstanding as well as handling above 20k.
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The Spit 14 need not be perked at all, but of the powers to be think it *really* needs a perks it certainly doesn't deserve the price it has now. The Spit 16 is more of a threat than the Spit 14 ever will be (turns better, rolls better, more stable, carries 1k ordnance). The only place the Spit 14 really shines better is above 24k altitude.
This is not a condemnation of the Spit14 perk, but rather a need for the spit16 to HAVE a perk!
:devil
P.S. Clipping wings usually corresponds to low alt work and low alt engine gearing. We have a high alt Spit14 so we couldn't clip the wings (even if there were any in the war -- apparently not) without also changing the engine, the performance, the entire plane itself. That would be an entirely new plane.
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Ever come up against one above 24K? If you have, then you probably know why it's perked.
Sorry, but that excuse doesn't fly. The Ta152, P-47M and P-47N share that dominance and yet are not perked.
P.S. Clipping wings usually corresponds to low alt work and low alt engine gearing. We have a high alt Spit14 so we couldn't clip the wings (even if there were any in the war -- apparently not) without also changing the engine, the performance, the entire plane itself. That would be an entirely new plane.
All Spitfire Mk XIV's, even the clipped wing ones, had the same high blown Griffon 61 or 65. It isn't like the Merlin 61/63/66/70/266 you find on the Spitfires VIII, IX and XVI.
That said, the wings should not be clipped.
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Ah, thanks. Now that you mention it I have the feeling it's been said before (deja vu and all that).
I agree they should not be clipped on this model.
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give us the XII!
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give us the XII!
Why? Fly the Spit16, and it outperforms the XII.
The thing is, the XII, outside of those who absolutely love the detailed history of the plane, isn't useful. Nor is it better than anything we already have in-game.
What makes it interesting is that it was around in early 1942. At THAT TIME it was very fast. Much like the Mossie was fast against early 1943 models but in the MAs it's pretty much an easy target, you'd get the same issues here.
To quote an article on the XII that lists speeds:
"The resulting aircraft was very fast at low levels, reaching a speed of 372 mph at 5,700 feet and 397 mph at 18,000 ft. It was faster than the Mk IX up to about 20,000 feet, but above that height it was slower."
Well, let's look at our Spit9 and clipped wing Spit16:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=86&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
So, our Spit16 is as fast at 5000ft, even faster at 20,000ft, and stays fast up to almost 25k.
I know, I know... The die hard fans want it, and I can't blame them 1 iota. However, if you wanted to you could just fly a Spit16 and pretend, and get comparable results.
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RAF fans would kill for 2 cylinders more....I would expect the XII to have a lot of character and a fun aircraft to fly!
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RAF fans would kill for 2 cylinders more....I would expect the XII to have a lot of character and a fun aircraft to fly!
They are both 12 cylinder engines. The Merlin is a 27 liter engine and the Griffon was, if I recall correctly, a 36 liter engine.
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It spun the other way, though... Would probably spin out as badly as a Spit14 at 32k?
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Lets have both and perk the bubble a little more. Or a lot more.
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They are both 12 cylinder engines. The Merlin is a 27 liter engine and the Griffon was, if I recall correctly, a 36 liter engine.
damn I was persuaded that the griffon was 14 cylinders for like 10 years :lol :cry
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double post
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It spun the other way, though... Would probably spin out as badly as a Spit14 at 32k?
I think the 12's spit characteristics might be worse than 14's. 14 has a larger tail that helps with spin recovery, 12 still has the standard tail from the Merlin variants.
However I don't think there is anything wrong with the 14's spin characteristics. Yeah it spins a bit easier than most other aircraft but it was not designed for low speed operations and if done properly that extra torque can be used to your advantage.
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Pilot notes say it flew like any other spit in terms of performance [ed: not counting speed power, naturally] and handling. Our 14 is a bit of an anomaly in that it is totally non-spit-like.
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They are both 12 cylinder engines. The Merlin is a 27 liter engine and the Griffon was, if I recall correctly, a 36 liter engine.
Essentially. Merlin's are 27.5 liter and Griffons are 37.5 liter... imagine what the guys on Top Gear would say.
Also, Krusty, similar reports state that the IX turns like the V and that the V turns like the I. So put two and two together and you can conclude that the IX turns like the I!
Their comparisons are not incorrect, they are simply more of a 'touch feel' thing than hard data. Though Griffon birds are rough, their pure flat turning capabilities are more similar to IX's (according what the RAF felt) than that of the Fw 190.
EDIT: here's an image of what I'm talking about. It's been posted before, and I believe the 109 was tested with wing guns.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-turning.jpg)
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That image is not a valid comparison to any type of plane. It's childish in scale and nature. I hate when folks post it as an actual turn radius measurement.
I've never heard the claim repeated that the V turns like an I, and an IX like a V, but I HAVE heard repeatedly that the XIV turned as tightly as the spit9 or 5 (I can't recall which at the moment without looking it up)
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Pilot notes say it flew like any other spit in terms of performance [ed: not counting speed power, naturally] and handling. Our 14 is a bit of an anomaly in that it is totally non-spit-like.
I guess that depends on what you mean by "non-spit-like". 14 is significantly heavier than the Merlin variants yet it has the same wing. This means that it has a higher wing loading than the Merlin variants means it would not turn as well.
The 14 in AH does not turn as well as other spits but I do believe that handling characteristics are "spit-like".
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Essentially. Merlin's are 27.5 liter and Griffons are 37.5 liter... imagine what the guys on Top Gear would say.
Also, Krusty, similar reports state that the IX turns like the V and that the V turns like the I. So put two and two together and you can conclude that the IX turns like the I!
Their comparisons are not incorrect, they are simply more of a 'touch feel' thing than hard data. Though Griffon birds are rough, their pure flat turning capabilities are more similar to IX's (according what the RAF felt) than that of the Fw 190.
EDIT: here's an image of what I'm talking about. It's been posted before, and I believe the 109 was tested with wing guns.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-turning.jpg)
That image is inaccurate. Your turning circle would depend on speed and pressure so it varies for each aircraft. Also each aircraft had it's specific performance envelope where it performs the best, this image does not say what speed these turn radios' are for. See at 500mph a Meteor will turn tighter then a Spit9, yet at 200mph a Spit9 will turn tighter then a Meteor.
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Ive noticed that although the XIV prototypes and production/converted Mk.XIIIs had standard wing tips, most of the pics I can find of high-back XIVs in service show clipped wings.
given the improvement in capability the XVI's clipped wing gives compared to the (very similar) unclipped VIII, clipping the XIV might finally make it perk-worthy.
anyone have more evidence either way?
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/414sqdn-spit14.jpg)
I don't think the one that's modeled in-game is a high-back, but the currently modeled fuselage would greatly effect my decision.
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I kinda just pointed out that it was not an exact measurement... I stated that it was the "touch feel" sort of thing that the evaluating pilots had of the aircraft at the time.
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Why? Fly the Spit16, and it outperforms the XII.
The thing is, the XII, outside of those who absolutely love the detailed history of the plane, isn't useful. Nor is it better than anything we already have in-game.
What makes it interesting is that it was around in early 1942. At THAT TIME it was very fast. Much like the Mossie was fast against early 1943 models but in the MAs it's pretty much an easy target, you'd get the same issues here.
To quote an article on the XII that lists speeds:
"The resulting aircraft was very fast at low levels, reaching a speed of 372 mph at 5,700 feet and 397 mph at 18,000 ft. It was faster than the Mk IX up to about 20,000 feet, but above that height it was slower."
Well, let's look at our Spit9 and clipped wing Spit16:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=86&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
So, our Spit16 is as fast at 5000ft, even faster at 20,000ft, and stays fast up to almost 25k.
I know, I know... The die hard fans want it, and I can't blame them 1 iota. However, if you wanted to you could just fly a Spit16 and pretend, and get comparable results.
Krusty, we just flew a scenario where I used Spit Vs instead of XIIs for 91 squadron as they had Vs before XIIs. Historically it should have been XIIs. Can you imagine the Luftwhines if I'd subbed a Spitfire XVI for the XII? There would have been a riot of complaints about it being unfair! I went with a 41 Spitfire Vb instead of a 45 Spitfire XVI.
And no, using the 16 wouldn't be the same :)
That being said, and being a Spit XII history nut since 1980 far longer then anyone here or the game has existed, I would dearly love one. I've also said since the beginning that despite that love for the XII, there are other birds that need to be added in game.
But do remember next time you go on wanting the right 190 version, what you just said about just imagining an XII with a XVI :)
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Oh, I pretend I have "version X" plenty when I'm flying certain planes....
It gets pretty bad sometimes. I should seek help :P
I caught myself pretending I had a me410 while flying a 110G a few times. Even worse, I pretended I was in a G.55 when dogfighting in a C.205.
Just for the record, I wasn't trying to be a total downer on the XII. From a planeset scenario it's not needed. From a special events scenario it had limited use and limited utilization. I still get that folks want it, just like I want a few models that aren't all that vital. Folks can dream, eh?
Yes, I can imagine the whines if the spit16 was used in the example you give Guppy, but I think part of that is because of how HTC chose to model the spitfires in this game. If any plane in the game now holds the UFO title, it would be the spitfire16 nowadays. The Las lost the title when they were remodeled, as did the n1k2. They both got a bit of a nerf in handling. That pretty much leaves the spitty! Focus all attention on it, players of the MA! (so the MA MOTD should read, methinks).
Although, whines or not it (the spit16) probably would still be way better than the spit5. Hell even the spit9 would be better (unless this was a while back and we're talking the up-boosted spit5 with 240 20mm rds -- then I could see why that was the choice).
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No, it was the recent scenario pitting the 1943 RAF vs the Luftwaffe, so the 1941 Spitfire Mk Vb Guppy is referring to is the current one.
Also, drop the Spit hate or actually post supporting data for your whines. Every bit of data I have seen says the Spitfires are, if anything, undermodeled due to their excessive fragility. Wing flex isn't modeled in this game, but if it ever is the Spits should have an annoying amount of wing flex making shooting in high G situations very much less accurate.
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Well , in real life, I have seen 7 Spitfires take off together, including Mark V, throught to Mk14
The Mark 14 absolutely dominated the earlier models in apparent performance at 0-5k.
It acceleration it clearly was far better at display routine boost levels (which I dont know what they were limiting their engines to).
It was faster, louder (hurt the ears even), and with clipped wings, low back and bubble canopy and five prop blades looked DEADLY!
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well in a perfect world we would be able to choose the wing configuration in the hangar, for the universal wing equipped models :)
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HTC has said that's not possible. The game works on lift forces being computed in real time, so doing something that changes the lift isn't possible.
(to paraphrase, from memory).
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there is no reason for the spit 14 being perked.
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The only reason to perk the spit 14 would be if the entire arena flew at the crazy high historical altitudes they did in real life.
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I read a quote once as to why it was perked. Dated waaaaay back from when it was added or thereabouts. Somebody on HTC side, can't recall whom, made a comment to the effect that "It's perked because it climbs like a rocket" or some such.
Keep in mind it has one of the best overall specs of all the planes in the game. Then keep in mind they added the spit16 later. The reason the 14 was perked is still there. The question is: Why wasn't the 16 perked to match? The answer (IMO) is all the whining from some spit fans. Doesn't negate the reason it was perked or the raw performance of the ride.
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Krusty,
If the question is "Why isn't the Spitfire Mk XVI perked?" then we must also ask why the Bf109K-4 isn't perked as it will out climb either of those Spitfires.
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You can answer your own question about the K4.
The MK108 limits the K4 to a small cadre of "dedicated" players who have mastered the aircraft and it's crappy main gun. If the MK108 in the K4 was replaced with the MG151/20, the K4 would become a devastating terror in the MA. If the G10 were reintroduced now with the MG151/20 main gun, spit16's would loose their uber easy mode shine. The MA has a very healthy competent population of 109 fliers who would take up the G10 as their primary ride in a moment.
Why not ask for the G10 as a balance to unperking/wing clipping the spit14 and countering the spit16? I seem to remember it being a powerful and very agile 109 back in the day.
That cadre of K4 aces would probably make the unperked spit14 as irrelevant as they do with the K4/G14 to spit8/16 now.
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Why not ask for the G10 as a balance to unperking/wing clipping the spit14 and countering the spit16? I seem to remember it being a powerful and very agile 109 back in the day
We never had a Bf109G-10. We had a Bf109K-4 labeled as a Bf109G-10 so that it could have 20mm options. It always had Bf109K-4 handling though.
I remain highly skeptical that the Spitfire Mk XIV is any more dangerous than the Bf109K-4. All people can say about the fact that the XIV is perked and the K-4 isn't even low ENY is "But, the ballistics!" I think the Mk XIV's persistent failure as a perk plane speaks for itself, but that will, as always, be hand waved away with elitist talk about how Spitfire drivers suck.
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We never had a Bf109G-10. We had a Bf109K-4 labeled as a Bf109G-10 so that it could have 20mm options. It always had Bf109K-4 handling though.
Did Hitech or Pyro ever personaly say anything about this? I've seen repeated from forum denizins this assertion over the years. But, never read anything from the programers themselves admitting to the fact. I wouldn't want to get myself Wales'd over anything by assuming to speak as them.
The G10 itself for the MG151/20 motor lafette kannon would make a good foil to the spit14 and 16 for the less MK108 talented Luftsnipers. The spi14 being unleashed could bring the war to the current hide above 15k ponyD run-n-hiders by allowing defenders to get to 15k+ in time to engage those timid hit-n-runners before they drift out of combat range.
The only downside to this would be to the LWMA newbies steepen'd ACM learning curve by introducing a shooter freindly 109 monster and freeing a climb monster spit. Yes and I thought about the muppets, top gun, kommndo N, etc.... with the G10 and it was a painful tought. But, then we would be relying on them to check the spit14 and balance the game. Win-Win.
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A bubble canopy spit with the clipped wings would complete my world. There were probably more of them than the 163 or the ta152 in the war. Those also have brought great joy to me at times as well. Lets not argue numbers for the sake of argument, lets do for the good of the base, it will only improve the game.
Infidelz.
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yes to the clipped wing 14, as for the mk108 being hard to hit with give it a rest. It is point and click, one hit, one kill, easy mode. :bolt:
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Well, to the spit crew and perking point....
If a spit 14 came across a spit 16 in the MA, at MA atlitude fights (7-15k), who wins (same pilot) most of the time. I would reckon the 16. The 14 seems quite nose heavy and does not dance as well as the 16. If we can hit GVs with a 1 point perk, why not an airplane.
To begin with 1 point perk:
P51
Spit 16
La7
N1K2
P47M
To get back to the OP point, I would personally like to fly more aircraft with bubble canopies. If it happened to be the spit XIV... hooah.
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Did Hitech or Pyro ever personaly say anything about this?
Yes, though I don't recall where the post was. HiTech or Pyro stated what I said. The old AH "Bf109G-10" had a top speed of 452mph, which is the speed a Bf109K-4 has and about 25mph faster than a Bf109G-10 should have.
The G10 itself for the MG151/20 motor lafette kannon would make a good foil to the spit14 and 16 for the less MK108 talented Luftsnipers. The spi14 being unleashed could bring the war to the current hide above 15k ponyD run-n-hiders by allowing defenders to get to 15k+ in time to engage those timid hit-n-runners before they drift out of combat range.
As noted above, the Bf109G-10 would be at a bit of a performance disadvantage against a Spitfire Mk XIV at altitude. In addition, due to the fact that the Bf109G-10 entered service a month after the Bf109K-4 did, it would not plug any holes the way a Bf109G-6/AS or Bf109G-14/AS would.
The only downside to this would be to the LWMA newbies steepen'd ACM learning curve by introducing a shooter freindly 109 monster and freeing a climb monster spit. Yes and I thought about the muppets, top gun, kommndo N, etc.... with the G10 and it was a painful tought. But, then we would be relying on them to check the spit14 and balance the game. Win-Win.
The Spitfire Mk XIV is anything but "shooter" friendly. If the ballistics of the MK108 weren't such crap the Bf109K-4 would be much more shooter friendly, but as it is its pretty much a tossup between the two. Better ballistics on the Spitfire Mk XIV or better stability and a center line mounted gun on the Bf109K-4.
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The MG151/20 motor kannon would turn a bunch of average and part time K4 pilots into consitantly higher kill/death and hit% players. The K4 part timers often due to the MK108 would become more enamored of flying the (easy mode shooting K4) G10. Below 18k where the MA takes place most of the time, we would see more G10 than G14 chasing spit14 down and eliminating them. That would tend to be a natural thing to do catching a spit14 below 15-18k.
Then you might even see a request for a perk on the G10 to protect the spit14 which takes a good deal of skill not unlike the K4 does due to the MK108 now to fly below 18K. I find there are times below 12k I wish I had brought a poni versus a spit8/14 when I get slow. There is that nasty stall when you try to treat them like a 9 or 16 in the middle of a red storm if you get slow. It would be nice to get to know the spit14 and it's idiosyncrasies without a persistant dogpile not unlike at furball lake trying to kill it everywhere I take one.
I can understand the perk on the Tempest becasue it's low alt performance lets you walk away from that dogpile. The G10 would be in that catagory along with it's easy mode guns for many 109 lovers in the game. Maybe it's how long I've been playing this game but, I just don't see the spit14 as much of a problem unperked as say the Tempest, 4Hog, or CHog would be. The G10 would be a foil to any of those three in its K4 easy mode gunnery self.
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Why would the Bf109G-10 need to be perked? The Bf109K-4 has significantly higher performance. The top speed usually reported for the Bf109G-10 was 426mph compared to the Bf109K-4's 452mph. Obviously that is at best altitude, but I'd expect lower altitude performance to also lag behind the Bf109K-4.
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In the MA the G10 would have the MG151/20 which takes less skill to hit with and gives you more rounds for snap shots in furballs. The MK108 is the only reason the K4 is not perked with the spit14. I think you refered to the G10 as a K4 with a 20mm package. 120-150 rounds in the belt to spray and pray.
That would introduce balance becasue more players could fly the G10 and be successfull at it than the K4. There would be enough balance in normal MA play to counter all but the better spit14 sticks. But, I'm trusting given the expanded stable the better 109 sticks would take care of the minority of highly talented 14 drivers. At least you would see some very interesting vertical WEP contests after the mutual vertical stalls the spit8 and 16 usualy looses to the K4's WEP. God knows the 51 just hangs there at that point. The spit8/16 kinda slowMo while you watch that K4 paddle on away with that WEP.
I probably have the perks to burn for years just dieing in the spit14 but, it would surely liven up the game play freeing it to remove that neon dogpile me to death sign and reintroducing the G10. I have squadmates who would dump the K4 in a heartbeat and never look back for the G10 and a 20mm. Gonna bet thats not an isolated sentiment in the german iron camp.
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A bubble canopy spit with the clipped wings would complete my world. There were probably more of them than the 163 or the ta152 in the war. Those also have brought great joy to me at times as well. Lets not argue numbers for the sake of argument, lets do for the good of the base, it will only improve the game.
Infidelz.
Actually not the clipped wing and probably not bubble tops. They were very very end of the war. Do understand that the clipped XIV was mainly postwar when it was taken out of the interceptor/fighter role and used as a ground attack option as jets had taken over the interceptor-fighter role.
In WW2, the XIVs kept their full span wings as they were being used as fighters, not fighter bombers.
We have the wartime Spit XIV. Whatever limited visibility advantage a bubble Spit might give us, would hardly be worth the modeling time with the Spits we already have. And I'm a great fan of Spits. The XII or Seafire III would be far better additions with the Seafire III probably first on that list even though the XII is my personal favorite. A full span LFIXe would make more sense then a bubble top XIV in terms of scenario use etc.
I'd rather the time be spent on other birds we don't have at all then just tweaking Spits, or 109s for that matter.
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In the MA the G10 would have the MG151/20 which takes less skill to hit with and gives you more rounds for snap shots in furballs. The MK108 is the only reason the K4 is not perked with the spit14. I think you refered to the G10 as a K4 with a 20mm package. 120-150 rounds in the belt to spray and pray.
You misunderstood me. I meant that AH had a Bf109K-4 that was labeled as a "Bf109G-10" so that HTC could include the 20mm guns. The real Bf109G-10 did not perform anywhere near as well as the Bf109K-4. If HTC were to add the Bf109G-10 back into AH it would be more like a Bf109G-14, but with the Bf109K-4's power/altitude bands. Top speed would be about 426mph at the same altitude the Bf109K-4 does 452mph.
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And the spit14 would not own the sky by any means in the face of a G10 even by those standards.
It would be a good matchup and possibly the source of a good rivalry. As it is the K4 being non perked has no real competition from the spit14 by being so rare in the same skys. You cannot realy get into a furball and chase a K4 down while the dogpile neon sign is lit on the spit14's kester. I doubt much is needed to reintroduce a G10 and unperk the spit14 as a side show to the overall production process. We were surprised with the P47M out of the blue.
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And the spit14 would not own the sky by any means in the face of a G10 even by those standards.
It would be a good matchup and possibly the source of a good rivalry. As it is the K4 being non perked has no real competition from the spit14 by being so rare in the same skys. You cannot realy get into a furball and chase a K4 down while the dogpile neon sign is lit on the spit14's kester. I doubt much is needed to reintroduce a G10 and unperk the spit14 as a side show to the overall production process. We were surprised with the P47M out of the blue.
G10 comes no where close to matching a Spit14 in the Main arena or a snapshot/FSO event. If anything the K4 would be a much lower ENY value with the Spit14 and the G10 goes to 20 eny which would make sense to me. The G-10 never "out performed" the K4, however I've seen enough Spit 14s vs K4 fights to say the Spit 14 isn't exactly a "loser" in the fight.
The stupidest part of this silly whine is both K4 and Spit 14 are equal on pretty much every level. Both should be either 5 eny or 10 and leave it at that, neither should be perked.
Neither out perform each other in any scenario to an extreme.
So why perk? Add the G-10 and put it at 20 eny.
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We never had the Bf109G-10 so there is no Bf109G-10 to reintroduce. Nor would it be a match for the Spitfire Mk XIV if it were added.
As to the Bf109K-4 being rare, I can't say I agree. I run into the things every time I play. The point about the Spitfire Mk XIV being gang banged due to its icon and perk status is true though.
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Actually yes Bubble and clipped wing..
Yes bubble and clipped wing.
yes bubble and clipped wing.
Now let us continue with the 109 discussion. oh wait, thread hijakz
Infidelz.
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We never had the Bf109G-10 so there is no Bf109G-10 to reintroduce. Nor would it be a match for the Spitfire Mk XIV if it were added.
As to the Bf109K-4 being rare, I can't say I agree. I run into the things every time I play. The point about the Spitfire Mk XIV being gang banged due to its icon and perk status is true though.
Anything with a perk value get's Ho'd automatically or rammed, I got a nice video last night of what was said when I was zipping around in a 262.
Seems every squeaker in a 20 mile radius went bezerk on killing me heh.
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As to the Bf109K-4 being rare, I can't say I agree.
My apology I used a shorthand literary style which misdirected you. I will expand to a fuller construct.
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As it is the K4 being non perked has no real competition from the spit14 by being so rare in the same skys.
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The spit14 is rare in the K4 dominated skys. Due to the dogpile neon sign on the spit14, it's more bother than it's worth to burn off perks against mini hoards to play with it. So, we have never generated any real rivalrys between the K4 and spit14. To this I'm making the projection that the G10 would be a good foil to about 20K with its 20mm to the spit14 if it were unperked and more common. Any competent G14/K4 pilot would do quite well in a G10 chasing around a spit14 while being able to spray 20mm. From reading several sources the G10 looks like engine and WEP wise is a bridge between the G14 and K4 to about 20k. It was delivered with the DB 605DM, DB or DC like the K4.
Unless our G14's engine is changed with it's armament packages. The 20mm was mounted in the G14 standard low alt version's 605AM engine while the 30mm was mounted in the high altitiude G-14/U4 version's DB 605ASM. So do we have two G14 or a cluge?
Another possiblity. I keep reading that some K4 were delivered with 20mm motorkannon. How many in service flew with the 20mm?
There was this:
Prien and Rodeike 1995, p. 174.
Caldwell 1991, p. 292.
Armament of the K-4 consisted of a 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 engine-mounted cannon (Motorkanone) with 65 rounds, and two 13 mm (.51 in) MG 131s in the nose with 300 rpg although some K-4s were fitted with the MG 151/20 as the Motorkanone. Additional Rüstsätze, or equipment kits, such as a 300 L (80 US gal) drop tank (R III), bombs up to the size of 500 kg/1,100 lb (R I), underwing 20 mm Mauser MG 151/20 cannon gondola pods (R IV) or 21 cm (8 in) Wfr.Gr. 21 rockets (as on the Gustav models) could be carried after minimal preparations; the latter two however were rarely used by Bf 109 units at this stage of the war, but there is evidence that III./JG 26 were almost completely equipped with K-4s which were fitted with R IV. In addition there were problems with the 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 Motorkanone:
The 30mm cannon were extremely potent weapons, but they had a tendency to jam, and apparently all of the K-4s supplied to III./JG 26 were also equipped with 20mm-guns in the hated underwing tubs. Uffz. Georg Genth's regular aircraft was a G-10, but on occasion he flew a K-4. He preferred the G-10 as a dogfighter, as the K-4's bulky armament sharply reduced its manouevrability.
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In my opinion, if you replace the 30mm on the Bf109K-4 with a 20mm it is probably just superior to the Spitfire Mk XIV, largely due to higher performance on MIL power and twice as much WEP duration.
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Then the G10 has the same engine and the K4 has the refinements in the airframe from the G10. The only difference is the gun package. Since our G14 has an obvious engine clug between the gun packages, slap a 20mm in the K4 and call it a G10 while freeing the spit14 to compete against it.
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The stupidest part of this silly whine is both K4 and Spit 14 are equal on pretty much every level. Both should be either 5 eny or 10 and leave it at that, neither should be perked.
Neither out perform each other in any scenario to an extreme.
So guns don't matter? For the 30mm, a D600 shot is about as hard as a D1000 shot with .50's at the VERY least. D400 is probably a better comparison to .50's at D1000.
Even if the K4 DID have the 20mm, the balistics would still be inferior for both the cowl guns and the 20mm, and it would mount half as many 20mm's.
IMO: Spit 14 unperked (for a tour at least, we'll see what happens) ENY 10
109K unperked, eny 20 (leave it alone, basicly)
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In my opinion, if you replace the 30mm on the Bf109K-4 with a 20mm it is probably just superior to the Spitfire Mk XIV, largely due to higher performance on MIL power and twice as much WEP duration.
I would love to see a MG/151 in the K4, I would certainly fly it more often - my biggest draw back is the damn 30mm is a pain in the bellybutton to hit something with.
I generally get all my kills on close combat and snapshots and the 30mm is not a fan of either.
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Even if the K4 DID have the 20mm, the balistics would still be inferior for both the cowl guns and the 20mm, and it would mount half as many 20mm's.
You do realize its the same gun package as the 109G6 and G14 right? Its actually quite a very deadly gun package assuming you have any aim what so ever.
In two sorties I flew the G14 and G6, shooting down 7 and 6 on each sortie, I wouldn't even bother firing past D400 - and generally don't unless D200 or closer.
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You do realize I never said it wasn't effective, right?
Answer me this: Do guns matter (that is, do you think they should have an effect on the ENY of the aircraft, or should it be purely preformance based)?
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Not everyone can fly like a muppet. But, many average players land 2-3 kills by the nature and ease of use of thier gun package. The more rocks to spray at an oaktree, the more chances of knocking down an acorn.
Most players do not put the time into rides to learn the advantages of a given ride's performance for performance to make more of a difference than the irritating ability to spray and run away. Hand out G10's along with freeing the spit14 and the majority will run around canceling each others advanteges out by flying them innapropriatly for their performance strengths. Those who can will have at each other less disturbed.
How often do you worry that 3 high P51D are circling your furball? For the most part it's going to be 3 guys diving into your furball faster than they can manage anything but a passing tap on the trigger. It's that lone K4 I'm more concerned with if I see that 2 or 3 squads have members logged on. The spit14 would make it possible to equalise thier return to the perch or neutralise it. Or I get to watch the keystone cops conga line try to follow it up and around and back up and around and on and on. Why? Nothing else unperked has that K4 WEP to the stars from the deck besides a G14 almost and no neon dogpile sign on it's back.
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One fundamental piece being left out of the discussion. For as long as I've played online flight sims there hasn't been a German bird modeled correctly or nearly as well as an Allied bird, in particular the Spitfire.
It's become ingrained in the game that the Spit somehow isn't fair and the idea of unperking the Spit 14, despite its far longer service life then the 109K4 would be like letting a wolf loose in a flock of sheep.
In the end what you'd have is a Spitfire that could catch the 109K or D9. It's a harder bird to fly then the Merlin Spits. If it were a free Spit I would imagine there would develop a group of Spit 14 drivers much like there has been a group of 109K drivers.
When talking 109K drivers now, it's generally in reference to a guy who has spent the time to tame it to where it's such a potent weapon. The Spit 14 would require the same.
It's not the Spit for a newbie as they'll try and fly it like a 9 or 16 and die in it. I loved it when I was flying the Spit Vb during the scenario time frame. I'd run into a Spit XIV now and then and they'd think they were going to eat me alive. But of course they'd try and out turn the Vb and die. The XIV isn't that kind of Spit.
By no means am I suggesting the K4 be perked like the XIV. Just the opposite. I wish they'd cut the XIV loose and see what happens. If it becomes some sort of plague, the perk cost can always be restored. But I'd about bet the house it wouldn't be a problem outside of a few guys who would live in it and really learn to use it. But that applies to just about any bird in the end.
Personally I'd rather run into a good stick in the ride he enjoys as it means the fight will be better and the challenge that much tougher for me in a 38G. I'm not going to run from any of them as I'd rather die in a good fight, then win one that was no challenge.
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I can't resist hijacking this thread: My support for the bubble canopy clipped Spitfire Mk.XIV shall not waiver.
Infidelz.
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I would also like to say that there is a very false dichotomy that seems to be accepted, but that I reject. There seems to be an assumption that there has to be an opposing Bf109 for a Spitfire to be allowed, but conversely there does not have to be an opposing Spitfire for a Bf109 to be allowed. Whenever we speak of adding the Bf109G-6AS, Bf109G-14/AS or Bf109G-10, nobody says "Well, if we get the Bf109G-6/AS we'll need a Spitfire HF.Mk IX to match it."
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Karnak, I agree about the attitude, but in practice such balance is not needed in the arenas at least. Every plane's matched opponent is itself flown by the other country. What is the opponent to the 262? another 262.
Generally, I can't see the fuss about un-perking planes. If anything, I think the game will benefit from having even more perked models. The cost can be symbolic, from 1-4 perks. Does anyone really cannot afford flying Spit 14 nearly exclusively? That is, unless he just logged into the arena for the first time? Perk points are garbage as it is, but I find it more interesting when they have a value. Yet, players save thousands of perk points that they spend on nothing, or simply have nothing to spend on.
When finally someone decides to cough some precious perks and roll out a perked ride, the crowd response is "A PERKED RIDE!! ZOMG!". If half the planes were perked, including many of the popular ones (P51D, 109K, 190D, La7) you would not see such an attitude. I stress that a perk price of "1" is sufficient.
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I wasn't saying balance was needed. I don't think it is in the MA as the Bf109K-4 is explicitly and exactly balanced by the....Bf109K-4.
People seem to be saying that the Spitfire Mk XIV would need a Bf109 added to balance it if it were unperked and I absolutely reject that notion.
EDIT:
Given Lusche's data, the average player probably needs about ten to twenty sorties to afford a Spitfire Mk XIV.
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I wish they'd cut the XIV loose and see what happens.
Yup. It's the only Spit that is difficult to fly well, a good Allied counterpart of the K-4.
- oldman
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I wasn't saying balance was needed. I don't think it is in the MA as the Bf109K-4 is explicitly and exactly balanced by the....Bf109K-4.
People seem to be saying that the Spitfire Mk XIV would need a Bf109 added to balance it if it were unperked and I absolutely reject that notion.
EDIT:
Given Lusche's data, the average player probably needs about ten to twenty sorties to afford a Spitfire Mk XIV.
Whoever is saying a 109 needs to be added to counter the Spit 14 probably hasn't ended his two week trial. The K4 does quite well at alt vs a Spit 14.
I reject any request to add another spitfire or Me109 to the game, there are enough sub variants that this argument can stop - its been going on since Air warrior and frankly stupid. There are plenty PLENTY of aircraft that need to be added in game before another variant of either get added.
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I've never seen any of you guys flying at the historic altitudes for these planes.
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I've never seen any of you guys flying at the historic altitudes for these planes.
It isn't very fun most of the time. I drug an La-7 up to 25,000ft once, he did a turn and a half before he realized how badly outclassed his La-7 was by my Spitfire Mk XIV up there, so he put the nose down and went back to the deck at 550mph. That is the frustration, without any reason to keep the fight up there, low altitude is just a moment away whereas high altitude takes effort to reach.
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I've never seen any of you guys flying at the historic altitudes for these planes.
71sqn did a 4-mossie fighter sweep at 22k only yesterday :aok
edit: I ended up ditching in the briny about 10miles off the enemy coast due to losing most of my control surfaces and fuel and was taken prisoner, hows that for historical realism? ;)
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I've never seen any of you guys flying at the historic altitudes for these planes.
What historic altitudes would those be?
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After 10 years I've read almost every argument imaginable presented to free the spit14 and the discussions as usualy devolved into personal and partisan biases.
Since balance has been presented as the purpose for perking, it seemed resonable to present a counter that would be simple to initiate in the game. Many of this posts audience has the ability to counter the spit14 by other offerings rather than the specific I've presented due to your experience. So your time earned grade based biases have been your ultimate argument dominating this conversation as the reasons to not free the spit14.
I've attempted to advocate for those not as skilled, time in grade, or perk fortunate as yourselves by presenting the G10 as a worthy counter to the spit14. It is a canard to argue there is not a difference in the value and usability to the less talanted of being able to spray with a 20mm that shoots flatter, has explosive rounds, and more ammo than the 30mm. Or a similar airframe to the K4 that sources point to being more ACM freindly with the same engine and prop along with similare altitiude performance envelopes.
If we argue just the two foes, we see reasonably matched aircraft in the unique relm of the general MA gaming style. Or we can argue from our biases and Bozon's rarified perspective and ultimatly try to convice Hitech to perk everything except for the C47, Storch, and paratrooper's 45. So in WW2 did these aircraft, the spit14, G10, and K4 never run into each other because Churchill perked his best air superiority fighter that was developed to address german technology such as them? Or they it?
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71sqn did a 4-mossie fighter sweep at 22k only yesterday :aok
edit: I ended up ditching in the briny about 10miles off the enemy coast due to losing most of my control surfaces and fuel and was taken prisoner, hows that for historical realism? ;)
22,000ft is rather higher than the Mosquito Mk VI usually went. :p
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22,000ft is rather higher than the Mosquito Mk VI usually went. :p
I tried to intercept buffs in a mossy this tour, around 22-24k it crapped out on me, I couldn't catch B24s =(
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Unperk the Spit14 and see what happens. I'll bet the results will be comparable to the Ta152 when it was unperked; hardly a ripple in the MA overall.
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From 2005 and why I chose the G10 and it's 20mm to counter the spit14.
It is always HTC's goal that planes perform like the real thing.
HTC Never modiefies a planes performance based on anything but our best interpitation of the flight data we have availible to us.
We do not have a bias towards any countries planes.
There are generic systems we use that people then try turn into we have a bias.
These include things like flaps.We make generic modeling choices on how to impliment certain systesm Thinks like, do flaps move to any position or do they have preset positions. These have absolutly nothing to do with a bias.We could model all types of flaps systems, but does it realy make much different to the plane.
People who tend to do reaserch on flight data tend to cheary pick the data. This is typicly because the plane they are researching is a plane they have always liked. I.E. on the FW performance being to slow comes from one report, but they wish to use another report with a better climb rate.
People also tend to belive that there is one set of golden /(Compltly real) numbers on the performance of an airplane. This is far from reality.
Finaly It always amazes me, how people clame things changed, with the 109s this version none of there performance changed. The 109k4 perfomes exatly like the 109G10 did.
The F190D9 has not changed since 2.00 was released. So have you ever flown since 2.00 wilbus or are you refering to pre 2.00 dora?
HiTech
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I tried to intercept buffs in a mossy this tour, around 22-24k it crapped out on me, I couldn't catch B24s =(
The Mosquito Mk VI has low blown engines and peaks in speed at 384mph at 13,000ft. I would very much love to see the Mosquito NF.30 added which would have a peak speed of about 425mph at about 28,000ft. I would definitely go bomber hunting in it.
Bustr,
I don't think that is saying what I think you think it is saying. HiTech was not saying there isn't any performance difference between a real Bf109G-10 and a real Bf109K-4, he is saying that there isn't any difference in AH. The AH Bf109G-10 was never modeled on the performance of a Bf109G-10, it was always a Bf109K-4, just named as a Bf109G-10 so that it could have gun options that the Bf109K-4 did not have.
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Good then the gun option and the performance is the counter to the spit14.
As far as I can tell from research the performance of the two is so similare to leave it up to engineers to argue over it. And being that miniscule in differences I can see why the code for it in the game had no difference other than the gun options.
Even though the G10 assembly line was the same as the K4 but, an interim endevor waiting for the standardisation of the product then to be called K4. It has the potential for solving the usual game complaint of loss of coding production time and, the 30mm is the tool of a master K4 pilot which eliminates the K4 as a general foil to an arena filled with newbie spit14 enthusiests.
A win/win for the luft lovers and spit lovers. Not all luft lovers are happy with the Mk108 and many spit lovers dream of repitious lawn darting in that huge nosed monster. Or the luft lovers in the know dream of all the newbies hitting 450 and loosing control in a P51D style vulch dive........ :)
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Good then the gun option and the performance is the counter to the spit14.
How? I feel like we are having a fundamental miscommunication.
As I understand it, the Bf109G-10 in AH performed like a Bf109K-4 but was labeled as a Bf109G-10 to justify armament options the Bf109K-4 did not have while also being the Bf109K-4.
In AH2 model accuracy has increased (hence the 1942 Spitfire F.Mk IX no longer has .50 cal, rocket or bomb options of the 1944 Spitfire LF.Mk IX) and so the inaccurate armament options were removed and it was properly labeled as a Bf109K-4.
If HTC were to add the Bf109G-10 to AH it would not perform like the old Bf109G-10 because that was really a Bf109K-4. A newly added Bf109G-10 would not perform like the old "Bf109G-10", it would be a completely new flight model with a top speed of about 426mph.
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Oh good we are talking about guns. How about guns for the MK.XIVc? quad damage anyone?
"Mk XIVc.. unit 96.... Jan 44 - Dec 49.... 4x 20mm (12)...................... 1x 500lb & 2x 250lb \\
The Mk XIV was the first Spitfire to get the new Griffon engine.
It looks like 527 MKXIV were produced with the ‘c’ wing, housing 4x 20mm cannon.
The Mk XIV could also carry three bombs: 1x500lb and 2x250lb
Delivery of the Mk XIV began in Jan 44
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/fighter/supermarine-spitfire-mk-xiv.asp"
So we should replace the current one with a c variant and get the e wing with the bubble.
Spitfire F.XIV: Had 'C' wing.1 Used normal canopy.1
Spitfire F.XIVE: Had 'E' wing.1 Some wings were clipped for low altitude work.1 Bubble canopy.1
Spitfire FR.XIVE: Low level fighter and reconnaissance.1 Clipped wings.1 Bubble canopy.1 Oblique camera in the rear of the fuselage.1 An additional fuel tank was added to the fuselage.1
1. Aircraft of WWII, Stewart Wilson, 1998
Infidelz.
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That information is in error, Infidelz. There were very few Mk XIV's with the c wing. The bubble canopy is a completely separate thing from the c or e wings and was very rare. No Mk XIV ever carried four 20mm cannons.
The Mk XIV we have in AH is representative of the most common configuration during the war, save for perhaps the boost setting being only +18lbs for WEP. If they wanted to they could add the option to replace the two .50s with the four .303s.
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22,000ft is rather higher than the Mosquito Mk VI usually went. :p
yeah i was moaning about that on climbout, but its the only mossie version we have with guns/cannons and we were buff hunting. more versions pls :aok
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Maybe a bubble canopy clipped wing mossie with 24 cylander Napier engines! Would be on topic. Put 4 mk 108s on it to be historical and we would be all set.
Seriously bubbles are delicious.
INFIDELZ.
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Outside of scenarios, 99% of game fighting takes place at low altitiudes the spit14 is outlcassed in speed performance by the G10, G14 , K4, spit16, spit8, P51D and Yak9U. How many of us in a year fight above 20k such as it matters to the overal stability of the arena?
spit14 - 448@26,000 feet.
G10 - 426@24,280 feet.
K4 - 445@24,610 feet.
Who in the MA fights furballs and decisive arena battles up there? Additionaly from the Spitfire Performance pages:
No evidence has yet been found that +25 lbs boost was employed in service by Spitfire XIV squadrons prior to VE day. Even at +25 lbs. the Spitfire XIV still fell short of the sea level performance of the Tempest V and highly boosted Mustangs. There is clear documentation that 2nd TAF Spitfire XIVs had their Griffon engines set to +21 lbs boost. Its also clear that the Griffon engine was eventually approved for +25 lbs maximum combat boost. Although the Spitfire XIV's strength was in the medium and high altitude role, the paucity of Luftwaffe opposition led to the Squadrons engaging in ground attack, where flak was a much larger threat than Me 109s.
So what is your real antipathy to the spit14? All this G10 minutia we are bandying about has been repurposed into an obvious situational canard to manuver around the antipathy and resolve nothing about the spit14.
A G10 will run it down below 15k in general MA play and hose it full of 20mm. Along with getting those flaps out faster for over shoots and hanging stalls just like is performed with the K4 as SOP in the LWMA. It will be spit8/16 and poni picking fodder at the same time. Only the less experienced will follow it up to it's best altitiudes once or twice then forgo that pleasure as a fools errand. Since you cannot dive it like a poni and survive very often. You will know seeing one on high over your low furball will most often be to figure him for a long time carfully working his way down. Or preoccupied with why his warp12 brick has a mind of it's own. I've never popped the wings off the past G10 or present K4 by pulling up from a dive at 450+ like with the spit14.
I have survived more K4 poor shooting though than purposfull 109 with a 20mm in its nose in all the rides I fly other than from K4 expertin. Gets back to the probabilitys of acorns being hit by throwing lotsa rocks as a usfull tool for the less expertin 109 drivers.
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Whoever is saying a 109 needs to be added to counter the Spit 14 probably hasn't ended his two week trial. The K4 does quite well at alt vs a Spit 14.
I reject any request to add another spitfire or Me109 to the game, there are enough sub variants that this argument can stop - its been going on since Air warrior and frankly stupid. There are plenty PLENTY of aircraft that need to be added in game before another variant of either get added.
Quoted for truth. No more 109's or spitfires needed.
Areas where we are really lacking:
Russian bombers
Italian aircraft
Russian fighters, to a lesser extent
EW/British GV's
attack aircraft (particularly for the Germans, since they really lack a single engine fighter, or a decently survivable twin, that is capable of carrying 2k of ord or more. Though the Me-410 will help rectify this)
EW bombers (all nations)
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yeah i was moaning about that on climbout, but its the only mossie version we have with guns/cannons and we were buff hunting. more versions pls :aok
Yes, we must have the NFXXX! The mosquito line must be completed!
The mounted radar will only be an ornamental one I'm afraid.
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Bustr is suggesting a counter to those who feel the 14 will imbalance the game in some way. The 14 will not, currently the 51D with its ords and high top speed is more then enough for the runners, add to that the LA and D9s and really what you have is a situation not where top speed is the absolute but that you are within an earshot of that top speed and have the alt to get the head start. If top speed and climb performance were the only factors, then all the 51 pilots would be in LAs - but they are not.
The 14, down low under 10k, usually under 5k, is not better then the spit 16, it turns worse and has a nasty stall. The people who can use a spit 14 to dominate can already do that in an LA or a 51 or a dora today - nothing much changes. Perked its rarely used, unperked it will have a few tours of popularity and those who like spits will probably go back to the 8 or 16 because they are much more docile and usable.
I feel that this is the same kind of argument people had when the 152 was unperked - and I think most people look at the 152 and and think "its not a dora, it's mine!"
So do we really need a G10 - no, not really. But will the spit 14 become the new 51? no, it can't turn, its got a nasty stall, and it could be argued that the 16 is a better sub-10k fighter, which is where most of the fights are anyway.
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The AH Spitfire 14 has near equal performance in normal main arena hights as the Spit 16 and Spit 8 below 300 MPH. Its hard to keep up with either aircraft, when attempting to stay in close formation.
The only advantage is over 300MPH, where it continues to a higher top speed and can outrun any other spit.
The WEP climb rate is a few hundred feed per minute faster than the other Spitfires at MA altitudes at military power.
Also, the Griffin engine has a 'dead' band of poor supercharging boost between 19k and 23k, meaning you must WEP climb through that band or risk being out run/accelerated.
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The AH Spitfire ...
Also, the Griffin engine has a 'dead' band of poor supercharging boost between 19k and 23k, meaning you must WEP climb through that band or risk being out run/accelerated.
I don't see it. Maybe you have a different airplane? Climb from 19 to 25 looks pretty constant without WEP. Over 27k WEP doesn't impact climb, but who would use it?
It is clearly faster than the other spits. so I don't understand all the hatin on the Spit XIV.
Infidelz
http://www.hitechcreations.com/component/option,com_ahplaneperf/Itemid,221/view,ahplaneperf/index.php (http://www.hitechcreations.com/component/option,com_ahplaneperf/Itemid,221/view,ahplaneperf/index.php)
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Watch your manifold pressure as you climb through.
I climb the XIV with WEP until 12k, turn it off, and then turn it back on when 1/4 of the slipper tank remains and use it to climb through 23k.
This can net you a plane at 34k feet with 45 minutes fuel remaining.........as long as you don't descend.
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Find me a wartime shot of a clipped XIV and I'd support it. If there were any, it was very few and I've yet to see a photo that's not postwar. Seems like once they moved to a more tactical role postwar with the increase in RAF jet units, the XIVs got thier wings clipped. But at the end of WW2 they were being used as interceptors with full span wings and the IXs and XVIs were the clipped Spits flying the ground attack.
Seem to remember and is borne out by the pic on the first page -
FR XIV were clipped, the additional camera weight caused wing root wrinkles on unclipped ones.
Would have to dig around again, I came across it by accident many years ago.
Allegedly taken April '45
http://spitfiresite.com/2007/11/scouting-over-germany.html
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interesting :aok
F Mk XIV RM927 delivered Nov '44, so ~2/3 of the way through production.
now back in the UK awaiting restoration (via the Belgian AF, a Belgian scrap dealer's office roof and a few US collectors :D)
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It would be great to get an impression from Amsoil who spend most of last tour in the spit14. Seems he has been in the K4 most of this tour. When i asked him about the 14, he said in essence that it was not as good as the 16 (I laughed and said that there were several times when i killed him where had he been in a 16 he would have killed me, and when he did get me, the 16 would have had me 1 o two merges earlier at least - which I think he agreed with).
Sure it is a great plane above 24k, so is the TA152. . . in all honesty AH2 is really a sub 10k game (which is why the LA is so dominant. . .really really imba powerful plane in AH2) with some fights starting at 15k. But the only time I have ever gone above 15k in MA was to go buff hunting, and if I found a plane, we would spar, but I would not follow him/her down to the deck.
Which is really why if it were unperked, I really don't see it affecting the MA that much at all. It accelerates and climbs great, but that is really it.
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Seem to remember and is borne out by the pic on the first page -
FR XIV were clipped, the additional camera weight caused wing root wrinkles on unclipped ones.
Would have to dig around again, I came across it by accident many years ago.
Allegedly taken April '45
http://spitfiresite.com/2007/11/scouting-over-germany.html
Where ya been Kev? :)
One of the perks of all the Spit XII research was getting at the photo albums. Terry Spencer had 350 squadron in XIVs and his last bird was a full span bubble top XIV. Peter Cowell of 41 finished in a bubble top full span 14.
I think if there were clipped 14s it would have been the FR birds at the very end.
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Around.
Married again and now living down under!
Can't remember how I came across it but there is definitely something on the Internet about FR XIV's being clipped.
The extra weight of the cameras in the fuselage was causing the wing root skin to wrinkle.
Haven't seen a pic of an FR XIV that isn't clipped (yet).
Must admit I don't know when they came into being, but the link in my last post says it was taken April 45. So only leaves a window of 1 day for it to be post war. Going on surrender date not signing of treaty.
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Around.
Married again and now living down under!
Can't remember how I came across it but there is definitely something on the Internet about FR XIV's being clipped.
The extra weight of the cameras in the fuselage was causing the wing root skin to wrinkle.
Haven't seen a pic of an FR XIV that isn't clipped (yet).
Must admit I don't know when they came into being, but the link in my last post says it was taken April 45. So only leaves a window of 1 day for it to be post war. Going on surrender date not signing of treaty.
Contests on the new Mrs and adventure down under. Agreed on all FR14s being clipped