a jet out turning a spitfire?

[Furball]

Read in alfred price's "spitfire: combat history" that the D.H. Vampire could outturn the Spitfire XIV, suprised me big time.

[leitwolf]

Tighter radius perhaps? Given the right speed, even a F-16 is able to "outturn" a Spitfire - for a short moment .. simply by pulling more G's than a Spitfire can hope to achieve.

[mora]

Not a change under 400 mph.

[HoHun]

Hi Furball,

>Read in alfred price's "spitfire: combat history" that the D.H. Vampire could outturn the Spitfire XIV, suprised me big time.

Do you happen to have the page number? I love the book, but I can never find anything in it :-/

If you've ever seen one in the air, you'll agree that the Vampire is a very manoeuvrable aircraft indeed :-)

Could it outturn a Spitfire? From merely looking at the numbers, I'd say at low speeds, the Spitfire should still hold the advantage because the Vampire (depending on the exact version) has a bit more thrust than a Spitfire in a slow turn, but appears to be heavier by a generous margin.

However, unlike propeller aircraft, jets don't get the highest turn rate at the lowest speed. At a speed above the Spitfire's best turn speed, the Vampire might be able to out-turn the Spitfire. It wouldn't be a very symmetrical fight though :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[justin_g]

This info is coming from the tactical trial of the Spitfire XIV and the Vampire prototype - which of course, was somewhat lighter than the production models. The Vampire in this trial could out-turn the Spitfire XIV.

[joeblogs]

How could this possibly be true?

-blogs

Originally posted by Furball
Read in alfred price's "spitfire: combat history" that the D.H. Vampire could outturn the Spitfire XIV, suprised me big time.

[TimRas]

"Turning Circles: The Vampire I is superior to the Spitfire XIV at all heights. The two aircraft were flown in line astern formation. The Spitfire was positioned on the Vampire's tail. Both aircraft tightened up to the minimum turning circle with maximum power. It became apparent that the Vampire was able to keep inside the Spitfire's turning circles. After four or five turns the Vampire was able to position itself on the Spitfire's tail so that the deflection shot was possible. The wing loading of the Vampire is 33.1lbs per sq. ft. compared with Spitfire XIV's 35.1 lbs per sq. ft.
...The Vampire will outmanoeuvre the Spitfire type of aircraft at all heights, except for initial acceleration at low speeds and in rolling.
... The Spifire XIV used in the comparison trial was a fully operational aircraft fitted with a Griffon 65, giving 2,015 h.p. at 7,500 ft. Vampire I had an operational take-off weight of 8,800 pounds, powered by a de Havilland Goblin 2 turbojet, developing 3,000 pounds static thrust."
[ Alfred Price: Fighter Aircraft ]

[Furball]

thankyou timras, yes that is what i was reading!

[Angus]

Holy cow.
Wonder how the Vampire racks up against the 262

BTW, The first fighter jet to cross the Atlantic was a Vampire. I belive it landed in Iceland on the way, or perhaps on one way.
I think it was in 1948.
The aircraft still exists and is flyable. Very nice and sleek

[Kweassa]

Unless the Vampire can accelerate as fast as the La-7 IMO its more or less being misused. It would be a nifty thing in a 1vs1 fight, but who'd want to slow down a jet fighter to turn as hard as a Spit in typical real life engagements?

 Obviously there's no way it could be turning like a Spit14 at high speeds. I also think its hardly likely a jet flying already at 400mph could start turning like that.

 So all of the powerful jet thrust is being used to haul that plane to turn like a Spit14 at probably like 250mph or something(what's the Spit14 corner speed, 250 or something?). Against a 262 already flying fast, I don't think any Vampire flying like that will ever be able to catch one.

[HoHun]

Hi Timras,

>... The Spifire XIV used in the comparison trial was a fully operational aircraft fitted with a Griffon 65, giving 2,015 h.p. at 7,500 ft. Vampire I had an operational take-off weight of 8,800 pounds, powered by a de Havilland Goblin 2 turbojet, developing 3,000 pounds static thrust."

Are you sure about the 3000 lbs? I've seen figures closer to 2000 lbs.

Assumed the 3000 lbs are accurate, the Vampire would have enjoyed a better thrust-to-weight ratio than the Spitfire at all speeds above ca. 210 mph.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[leitwolf]

Perk it!!

[joeblogs]

sound of blogs jaw dropping and then bouncing on the floor a few times...

Originally posted by TimRas
"Turning Circles: The Vampire I is superior to the Spitfire XIV at all heights. The two aircraft were flown in line astern formation. The Spitfire was positioned on the Vampire's tail. Both aircraft tightened up to the minimum turning circle with maximum power. It became apparent that the Vampire was able to keep inside the Spitfire's turning circles. After four or five turns the Vampire was able to position itself on the Spitfire's tail so that the deflection shot was possible. The wing loading of the Vampire is 33.1lbs per sq. ft. compared with Spitfire XIV's 35.1 lbs per sq. ft.
...The Vampire will outmanoeuvre the Spitfire type of aircraft at all heights, except for initial acceleration at low speeds and in rolling.
... The Spifire XIV used in the comparison trial was a fully operational aircraft fitted with a Griffon 65, giving 2,015 h.p. at 7,500 ft. Vampire I had an operational take-off weight of 8,800 pounds, powered by a de Havilland Goblin 2 turbojet, developing 3,000 pounds static thrust."
[ Alfred Price: Fighter Aircraft ]

[TimRas]

Originally posted by HoHun
Are you sure about the 3000 lbs? I've seen figures closer to 2000 lbs.

The first flight was made with a de Havilland (Halford) H1 Goblin, with thrust of 2300lbs (some sources say 2100 lbs). Later production Vampire F.1's were with Goblin 2 of 3100lbs (according to most sources).

[Angus]

The Vampire was supposed to be highly maneuverable from what I've read, and rather good in the speed department.
262 for breakfast.
But after all, it's no WW2 birdie anyway.

BTW, I've seen a Gloster Meteor doing aerobatics at an airshow. It surprized me completely by doing a low speed loop (rollover at top) from ground level. Never thought it was that nimble, - the loop was incredibly tight.