Author Topic: P-51 Airfoil and Turn Performance  (Read 30736 times)

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11597
      • Trainer's Website
Re: P-51 Airfoil and Turn Performance
« Reply #120 on: December 07, 2014, 12:21:10 PM »

I cannot understand how yaw porpoising would be affected by fabric of metal elevators. -C+


Yaw and porpoising are different axis. Porpoising is pitch.

Offline drgondog

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 326
Re: P-51 Airfoil and Turn Performance
« Reply #121 on: December 07, 2014, 03:21:12 PM »
Bf109 dive tests 1943:

max. Mach 0,805@7.0km
max. TAS 906km/h@5.8km
max. IAS 737km/h@4.5km

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/structures/tails/109.05e43_report/05e43-p2.htm

I cannot understand how yaw porpoising would be affected by fabric of metal elevators. AFAIK the porpoising of D was due to bubble canopy disturbing the flow around rudder assembly. The fillet cured the problem in level flight but not in dive.

As noted by FLS 'porpoising' is an oscillation in pitch (visualize Dolphin/Porpoise). It was believed that the fabric airfoil surface 'ballooned' in high speed - in any case the metal elevators solved the problem.

The airflow as modeled by Lednicer demonstrated that the pressure distribution was better in the D than the B (or the Spitfire 9 or the Dora) - I posted it as #10 post on this thread http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/flight-test-data/51-performance-thread-12670.html

one of the reasons is that the slope of the windscreen is ~6 degrees more (closer to parallel with freestream velocity over the cowling) than either the P-51B and Spit IX. If you look at the modeled pressure distribution using the VSAERO CFD plus a sophisticated Navier Stokes variable mesh to look at pressure gradients in the boundary layer, you will note the differences graphically.

-C+



Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Re: P-51 Airfoil and Turn Performance
« Reply #122 on: December 08, 2014, 06:03:09 AM »
According to this document the porpoising with fabrics could be encountered also at lower speeds at low altitude and the problem was remedied by metal covering up to 0.8 M. After that the plane still "wallows" in dive. There is no mention whether or not the porpoising phenomenon existed above 0.8M.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangIV-divetest.html

What I found out from P-51 D/K pilot manual that once you enter the compressibility there is not much you can do in a P-51 but to wait for the control to come back while you will lose at least 8000 feet of altitude before you have decelerated enough to begin to come out of compressibility. Mind you that P-51 does not have a flying tail where as 109 does, so it's pilot can control when he want's to come out of dive. It was quite common that these situations came as a surprise to 109 pilots and they did not always realize that all that was needed to come out of dive was a few rotations of elevator trim but rather tried to pull the stick with both hands. On one instance the indicated airspeed of a diving 109 was 850 kph so the absolute maximum dive speed was well exceeded. It was essential in the 109 that the trim was not used too much as the aircraft would tighten the pull out by itself when it decelerated, effectively ripping the elevators off the plane. I recall that at least one such incident is known.

Also from different data these aircraft seemed to share the tendency for the trim changes in different phases of the dive even if the wing profiles would suggest otherwise. It seems that the configuration of control surfaces affected this at least in P-51 which needed down trim in high speed due to fixed angle of its elevator plane (the effects of which were evident in the case of Galloping Ghost).

It actually seems that it was safer to dive faster than 0.8M in a P-51 than in a Bf109 but the problem was that in a P-51 you were a passenger during the deceleration phase where as in a 109 the aircraft could safely exceed the safety margins and you could control your exit from the dive better.

Anecdotal evidence is OK in many cases but it has to be kept in mind that in the heat of the battle the initial conditions are not known. So it somebody says that flying the X he caught the Y easily in a dive you have no way of knowing what was the initial speed of the Y to begin with. Anecdotes may give an idea of relative performance if there is no usable test data at hand.

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline drgondog

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 326
Re: P-51 Airfoil and Turn Performance
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2014, 09:58:56 AM »
The one comment - The Merlin Mustang was deemed 'controllable' at .83M (605mph TAS), while suffering structural damage. It was during the dive tests that the Vne was established at 505 mph. The tendency was for the P-51B/D to become increasingly nose heavy as the placard speed was reached - BUT it never had the change of CMac that both the P-38 and P-47 experienced - due to the laminar flow wing and the delayed onset of the compressibility shock wave.

The change of Tail plane incidence from 1 1/2 degree positive to 1/2 degree positive and replacing fabric with the metal elevator eliminated the problems  - but forced the pilot to apply more nose heavy trim prior to entering a dive.

Having said this, the 51 was controllable throughout the dive
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6863
Re: P-51 Airfoil and Turn Performance
« Reply #124 on: December 08, 2014, 11:59:44 AM »
According to my P-51D Handbook limiting max speeds:

All speeds are IAS.

40,000 ft. = 260 mph (418kph)
30,000 ft. = 300 mph (482kph)
20,000 ft. = 400 mph (643kph)
10,000 ft. = 480 mph (772kph)
5,000 ft. = 505 mph (812kph)

Offline save

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2824
Re: P-51 Airfoil and Turn Performance
« Reply #125 on: December 08, 2014, 12:21:44 PM »
Anyone have 190a/d series dive performance to compare with 109s and p51b/d ?
My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
"And the Yak 3 ,aka the "flying Yamato"..."
-Caldera


Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11597
      • Trainer's Website
Re: P-51 Airfoil and Turn Performance
« Reply #127 on: December 10, 2014, 02:59:51 PM »
Thanks for translating and posting. Your site is a great resource.