Author Topic: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L  (Read 18117 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6090
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2009, 08:39:11 AM »
Bodhi, what I was saying is the spinner COVERS the hub, I agree on hub size, hub size is the determining factor, the spinner just covers it. Meaning that the hub cannot be larger than the spinner. So if the spinner on a four blade Hamilton Standard on a P-51 is not drastically larger than the spinner on the three blade Hamilton Standard they used on the P-38K mule, then it is likely that the four blade version of the Hamilton Standard would likely fit on the P-38 as well. These days, since "Glacier Girl" is no longer close enough that I can go see her, I have no way to make that comparison myself. I could probably get by to see "Sweetie Face", if she's still here.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 09:35:49 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6090
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2009, 08:52:19 AM »
Holy wall of text Virgil! 

I'll have to look into this for an educated reply, but I am going to guess and say that the decrease in weight and streamlining for a Merlin vs. an Allison is gonna be huge let alone add the extra horsepower...

Okay, I looked at what Bodie had in "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning", The weight gain for the Merlin installation, according to the Lockheed engineering study on the project, was in excess of 1000 pounds, so the Merlin installation was heavier, not lighter. Bodie did think performance would improve, however, the study showed a reduction in climb and range. The actual goal of the installation was to reduce cost and complexity, and no doubt, that would have been the case.

Now, as to power, I disagree, the -30 Allison's made 1725HP each. And they made that much power just about all the way to about 29K feet. They could have made more, and did make more on the 150 fuel. Not only that, but the Allisons in the P-38K could exceed 1800HP, so there was more power to be had. Like any engine making more power, the tune up and fuel quality was more critical, meaning a better fuel supply would be needed (the 150 would have to be there, and be of good quality), something that was just as critical for the Merlin. The tune up was a problem for the Lightning with the Allison engine, as Tony Levier had to repeatedly address poor maintenance issues with  the groups he visited in Europe on his tour. So the advantage there goes to the Merlin, slightly.

On streamlining, Lockheed did a lot of work on that chin mount intercooler setup, just like they did on the bigger covers and scoops for the Prestone radiators on the later planes. The bigger scoops for the Prestones actually improved aerodynamics and reduced drag over the older, smaller scoops. So I do not agree that the aerodynamic package would improve, either.

On other thought on the Merlin swap. The P-38, with the Allisons, was already having a problem with prop efficiency, even if you feel the Merlin could make more HP, the Curtiss Electric props on the P-38 couldn't use all the HP the Allisons could make, increasing HP will only make that worse. The P-38 does as well as it does, as Widewing says, due to thrust. It was already at the point where more HP was not going to make more thrust, and neither would increasing RPM. The dramatic improvement seen in the P-38K was a lot more due to the better props than it was the increase in HP.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 09:37:19 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2009, 11:32:17 AM »
Bodhi, what I was saying is the spinner COVERS the hub, I agree on hub size, hub size is the determining factor, the spinner just covers it. Meaning that the hub cannot be larger than the spinner. So if the spinner on a four blade Hamilton Standard on a P-51 is not drastically larger than the spinner on the three blade Hamilton Standard they used on the P-38K mule, then it is likely that the four blade version of the Hamilton Standard would likely fit on the P-38 as well. These days, since "Glacier Girl" is no longer close enough that I can go see her, I have no way to make that comparison myself. I could probably get by to see "Sweetie Face", if she's still here.

I agree on that.  I believe the hub is larger on the Mustang blades than on the Curtiss blades, but that should not matter as the Curtiss blades are substantially longer.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6090
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2009, 02:00:07 PM »
I agree on that.  I believe the hub is larger on the Mustang blades than on the Curtiss blades, but that should not matter as the Curtiss blades are substantially longer.

Yes, it is. The picture that was posted, of the P-38K, shows how much larger the spinner is to cover the hub on the Hamilton Standard three blade prop they had on the K model. I would not find it at all hard to believe that the 4 blade version of the Hamilton Standard is also slightly larger than the 3 blade version. Just looking at that picture (and that's all we'll ever have, evidently a couple of pictures remain, but no drawings or papers) shows that the spinner is considerably bigger, and there's room for what looks like maybe 4" more diameter before the spinner and cowl would be bigger than the rest of the fuselage.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2009, 02:50:42 PM »
Photos courtesy of Widewing's site






ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2009, 07:15:13 PM »


 What was my original comment? "Actually in real life the p51 had a much better climb rate, and accelleration rate than the P-38. As did most single engine fighters verse the P-38. A function of mass.  In AH the difference is barely noticible or non-existant. Co-alt, equal energy states the P38 will outturn the P51. The P51s advantages are to out dive and return with a higher energy state.


Your original statement was and is incorrect. The P-38J or L would walk away from a P-51D when accelerating from low speed. Likewise, war time tests consistently show that the P-38J and L easily out-climbed the P-51D. What is so hard to grasp?

Here's the data:






My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10164
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2009, 08:15:54 PM »
In Aircraft of the Aces "Mustang Aces of the Eighth Air Force" by Jerry Scutts we find this paragraph at the bottom of page 15:

"The conversion of all groups to P-51s lay in the future and one unit, the 56th, resisted all attempts to part from its beloved P47s.
As one of the original saviors of the Eighth, the 'Wolfpack' was allowed this indulgence. Not that 'Hub' Semke's outfit was the only one to protest at the impending conversion.
In particular the 364th and 479th FGs, which arrived in ETO with P38s during early 1944, howled loudly at the decision.  However, most complaints were forgotten
once crews experienced the superiority of the P-51 over the P-38 in combat."

I think in the end analysis, the truest most remarkable statement any of us could make here today is that both the P38 and P51 were better than the other  :t
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 08:25:56 PM by Yeager »
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6090
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2009, 08:40:12 PM »
I'm pretty sure at least one P-38 group also kept their favorite birds, I do not have the name of the group handy. They were not part of the 8th AF.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Scherf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2009, 04:42:17 PM »
Something strange with those graphs?

So far as I can make out from America's Hundred Thousand, the P-38's only got 56% internal fuel, the P-51 77%.

Hardly service conditions in either case, nor does it seem an equal comparison.

<shrug> No skin off mine in the end.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline alskahawk

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 877
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2009, 03:12:48 AM »
Your original statement was and is incorrect. The P-38J or L would walk away from a P-51D when accelerating from low speed. Likewise, war time tests consistently show that the P-38J and L easily out-climbed the P-51D. What is so hard to grasp?

Here's the data:

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)


My regards,

Widewing


 Your first chart posted is for a P38J. Our discussion was for the P38L/P51D.  P38L climb rate 2850(P38J also listed as 2850) Horsepower listing for the P38L: 1475 hp Allison V-1710-1111/113(not  1700) Climb rate to 20k 7 minutes. Which is verified by your second chart. P38L Max speed; 414-420(?)

 P51D 1790Hp. P51 climb rate; 3475@175ias. (P51 flight manual) Top speed 437 There is also test data on a P51B/D Allison/Merlin engines on the same website where you got your charts as well as a initial acceleration chart. (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

  The history of the Allison engine in the Mustang is well known so a retelling would be redundant. Your contention is that a plane with a higher mass an a lower top speed is going to out accelerate a smaller mass plane with a higher top speed won't work. There isn't enough horsepower. Having two engines doesn't mean twice the power. Usually adding a second engine nets about 1.5 (or less) more power than one engine due to the mass and weight of redundant equipment. On the P38 there essentially 3 fuselages. The P38 may get an initial jump from the counter rotating propellers and that effect is reduced as speed increases.
     
 "The Allison engines of the Lightnings proved to be somewhat temperamental, with engine failures actually causing more problems than enemy action. It is estimated that every Lightning in England changed its engines at least once. Nevertheless, the ability of the Lightning to return home on one engine was exceptional and saved the life of the pilot of many a wounded Lightning. Experienced pilots could handle the Lightning satisfactorily at high altitude, but too many of the Eighth Air Force pilots did not have the training or experience to equip them for flying this temperamentally-powered aircraft in combat."(http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_17.html)
 Altitude(Pacific vs Europe)/cold weather performance of the Allison engines, and the insurance of a second engine for long over water flights were among the considerations of the deployment of the P38.   
 
 Here is a link in AH about a comparison of P38L vs P51d forum;http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=25938.0

 

 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 03:15:30 AM by alskahawk »

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6090
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2009, 10:18:18 AM »
Your HP rating for the P-38L is the commonly published military power rating, and not the actual War Emergency Power rating. The WEP rating for the -30 Allison in the P-38L is 1725HP. The P-38J engines had a verified 1612HP at WEP, and that was verified in testing by the USAAF, not just claimed by Lockheed and Allison. It is extremely doubtful the later L model would have nearly 300HP per engine less than the earlier J model.

According to Warren Bodie, Lockheed engineer and author of "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning", a book considered to be the final authority on the P-38, the P-38L had -30 Allison engines rated at 1725HP in WEP, and a top speed of around 440MPH at 20K-23K feet, according to Lockheed and Allison data. Bodie and the Lockheed documents are THE source for P-38 data, Warren Bodie was a Lockheed engineer for decades, worked in the Lockheed Skunk Works, and knew many of the engineers and pilots directly involved in the P-38 from beginning to end, personally.

And 1725HP per engine is 1725HP per engine, it does not matter how many there are. The power loading on the P-38 was better than on the P-51. The P-38L had 4.92HP/LB, the P-51D had 5.30HP/LB. The P-38 had a high aspect ratio wing that the P-51 did not. The P-38 would easily outclimb the P-51, and up to about 350MPH, it would out accelerate it.

The only problem with the "cold weather" theory about European operations is that at 25K feet, it is just as cold over the equator as it is over Europe. It's also just as cold over the south west Pacific ocean area at 25K feet as it is at 25K feet over Europe. The P-38 operated successfully, even in the dead of winter, in Alaska.

The reason the 8th AF found the Allison temperamental was they failed to operate it properly. Lockheed test pilot Tony Levier found that not only were pilots flying the P-38 at the wrong settings, but the maintenance crews were not properly adjusting the turbochargers or the fuel system.

The correct settings for cruise were 1600RPM, 32" MAP, and autolean. Pilots were flying the P-38 in cruise at 2500RPM, 15" MAP, and autorich. It was using more than twice the amount of fuel, fouling spark plugs, flooding fuel into the engine oil, keeping the coolant too cold, and keeping the oil too cool. Pilots went into combat with an engine that for the most part was not even warmed up to proper operating temperature. When they slammed the throttles open, they had practically no boost, the spark plugs were fouled, and the engines were dead cold.

Further, the crews had incorrectly set the turbocharger adjustments, so that the engines bucked and surged almost all the time. Not only that, but the fuel was poorly mixed, and the tetraeathyl lead was not homogeneous in the gasoline, so the octane could be as much as 20 points low.

After Levier demonstrated the correct settings and showed the crews the correct way to test and adjust the systems, pilots who had been complaining of rough engines and had come home with blown engines on a tea cup full of fuel now came home bragging how well the engines ran, and with 100 or more gallons of fuel to spare.

Also, not all of the P-38's in Europe had engines replaced, that is a complete exagerration. For example, Art Heiden flew his plane "Lucky Lady' (seen on postage stamps) for 324 hours of combat missions, without a single abort, and without a single engine change. Richard Loenhert flew his plane "California Cutie" for hundreds of hours with no aborts and no engine changes as well. It was not nearly so uncommon as you might think.

"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2009, 06:29:19 PM »
Your first chart posted is for a P38J. Our discussion was for the P38L/P51D.  P38L climb rate 2850(P38J also listed as 2850) Horsepower listing for the P38L: 1475 hp Allison V-1710-1111/113(not  1700) Climb rate to 20k 7 minutes. Which is verified by your second chart. P38L Max speed; 414-420(?)

 P51D 1790Hp. P51 climb rate; 3475@175ias. (P51 flight manual) Top speed 437 There is also test data on a P51B/D Allison/Merlin engines on the same website where you got your charts as well as a initial acceleration chart. (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

  The history of the Allison engine in the Mustang is well known so a retelling would be redundant. Your contention is that a plane with a higher mass an a lower top speed is going to out accelerate a smaller mass plane with a higher top speed won't work. There isn't enough horsepower. Having two engines doesn't mean twice the power. Usually adding a second engine nets about 1.5 (or less) more power than one engine due to the mass and weight of redundant equipment. On the P38 there essentially 3 fuselages. The P38 may get an initial jump from the counter rotating propellers and that effect is reduced as speed increases.
     
 "The Allison engines of the Lightnings proved to be somewhat temperamental, with engine failures actually causing more problems than enemy action. It is estimated that every Lightning in England changed its engines at least once. Nevertheless, the ability of the Lightning to return home on one engine was exceptional and saved the life of the pilot of many a wounded Lightning. Experienced pilots could handle the Lightning satisfactorily at high altitude, but too many of the Eighth Air Force pilots did not have the training or experience to equip them for flying this temperamentally-powered aircraft in combat."(http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_17.html)
 Altitude(Pacific vs Europe)/cold weather performance of the Allison engines, and the insurance of a second engine for long over water flights were among the considerations of the deployment of the P38.   
 
 Here is a link in AH about a comparison of P38L vs P51d forum;http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=25938.0


Let's cut to the chase, okay. You are really miles behind the curve when it comes to discussing the P-38. I've been writing about the Lightning for many years. I've researched it as much or more than anyone else in the aviation history writers community. I found material Bodie never saw. I've talked to dozens of pilot who flew both in the P-38 and the P-51 in combat, several of those aces.

In general terms, you are quoting Joe Baugher (who basically plagiarized several books) and God knows what other pulp aviation books from the Barnes & Noble discount rack.

Virgil Hilts explains the P-38 problems in the 8th AF well. Poor training, incorrect procedures, lousy fuel blending as well as other details led to the P-38's troubles in the ETO. As was explained, the air temperature at 30,000 feet is the same at any location on earth.

If you want accurate information on the P-38, start here: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel then move on to Bodie's "Lockheed P-38 Lightning". This will give you the basic background you need to only begin to understand the P-38.


My regards,

Widewing

« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 06:31:11 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Scherf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2009, 06:42:59 PM »
Not to stir the pot, but is there now any evidence as to where the whole Gabel-thing came from?  Last I heard, there were no contemporary German-language references to same.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2009, 11:41:41 PM »
The F4u-4 was the best WW2 prop fighter ever built, I think the F6F-6 would have been a monster as well. The Bearcat trumps even the -4.

Actually the F7F was the best WW2 fighter ever built

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Re: P51-D vs F4U-4 & P38-L
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2009, 12:14:36 AM »
I'm pretty sure at least one P-38 group also kept their favorite birds, I do not have the name of the group handy. They were not part of the 8th AF.
474th FG 9th AF