Author Topic: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.  (Read 2836 times)

Offline MajWoody

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A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« on: March 17, 2009, 11:29:19 PM »
This is what it's like to ALMOST be on the receiving end of the Gau 8 avenger (30 mil) of a Warthog. It's more awesome than I ever imagined.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhKp6B7Ktpw&feature=related

btw, turn up the sound.   :rock
Lets keep the stupid to a minimum.
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Offline Getback

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2009, 12:02:15 AM »
No mistaken those guns!

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Offline Saxman

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Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Stoney

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2009, 12:16:40 AM »
Those guys have a habit of lighting up the wrong side.  A-10's are overrated for close air support, because the Air Force lacks the mentality, training and experience for the mission, and not because the aircraft isn't capable.  But I am prejudiced.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline LCCajun

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 12:26:15 AM »
No wonder why Brits dont' like Americans. I would be p*ssed to though if that was me. A-10 might be overrated Stoney but you have to admit it is still one bad*** plane.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 12:28:49 AM by LCCajun »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2009, 01:00:58 AM »
A-10 might be overrated Stoney but you have to admit it is still one bad*** plane.

Absolutely--its killed more Americans in combat than any enemy aircraft since WWII.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline Karnak

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2009, 01:06:41 AM »
What is the joke I heard a Marine tell?  Something like:

Quote
If you need air support, call in a Marine aircraft.  If no Marine aircraft are available, call in a Navy aircraft.  If no Navy aircraft are available, call in an Allied aircraft.  If no Allied aircraft is available, figure out a way to do it without air support.
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Offline Yeager

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 01:25:43 AM »
Absolutely--its killed more Americans in combat than any enemy aircraft since WWII.
you have any qualifications or are you just letting words roll out your pie hole?
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Offline SectorNine50

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2009, 01:47:13 AM »
Unfortunately, there are several instances where A10's have fired upon friendly vehicles, however I suppose that is an issue with close air support.  The issue is usually command giving incorrect coordinates or improper intel.  There is a film somewhere of a couple A10's firing upon a British convoy, the American pilot sounded like he was about to burst into tears he felt so bad, one friendly casualty.  The problem was the command in this case, told them there were no friendlies in the area.

There have been arguments that the British-American communication hasn't been the best, and that's caused a lot of casualties for the British due to our aggressive trigger finger.  So it's hard to really say who's fault it is, but it's actually rarely the pilots.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2009, 01:48:19 AM »
you have any qualifications or are you just letting words roll out your pie hole?

January 1991, 9 Marines/Sailors killed between 2 incidents involving A-10's firing on Marine vehicles.  I have met people associated with the 2nd incident in which 7 Marines were killed when their LAV was hit with a Maverick Missile.

March 2003, between 8-17 Marines were killed when their Amtrack was hit by a Maverick Missile.  The track was loaded with wounded Marines making their way back to 1 Bn/2nd Marines BAS when it was engaged.  I had personal interest in this one, and was able to read the investigation.  I'll throw some blame at the forward air controller, but the responsibility for dropping the ordnance lies with the PIC.

The Brits and Canadians may have a bigger beef, since I know A-10s have torched 2 Warriors.  Anyway, do some google searches for A-10 fratricide and you'll find plenty.

To be fair, my statement is a truism, as American deaths to enemy aircraft since WWII are extremely rare.  And, to be fair, the amount of fratricide attributable to Vietnam era aircraft would probably (a) compare and (b) be harder to find due to less fratricide documentation back then.   My point is that people look at the aircraft and weaponry and say "ultimate close air support aircraft" when its operational history in that role has been dubious.  On the other hand, I know that there's at least one F-117 pilot that can probably attribute his successful rescue to A-10s.  As an interdiction aircraft, they excel, mostly because the Air Force excels at that role.  CAS is best left to the Marine Corps, in my former professional opinion.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 01:51:06 AM by Stoney »
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline LCCajun

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2009, 02:31:12 AM »
Stoney I didn't word my statement correct like an idiot. I should have said the A-10 is a bad*** if used correctly. I for one have fell in love with it due to how much firepower and damage it can take. It reminds me of the JUG. I was wondering what your opinion is on the Apache being used for CAS.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2009, 02:54:17 AM »
Stoney I didn't word my statement correct like an idiot. I should have said the A-10 is a bad*** if used correctly. I for one have fell in love with it due to how much firepower and damage it can take. It reminds me of the JUG. I was wondering what your opinion is on the Apache being used for CAS.

I've never seen the Apache used for true Close Air Support, and unless somethings changed, I don't really think Army doctrine supports their use as such.  [Oversimplification disclaimer!!!]  The Army chooses to use Apaches as more of a maneuver unit and it conforms more to an interdiction mission than true CAS.  Is the aircraft capable of CAS?  Absolutely, the weaponry and systems available to an Apache pilot are superb and well suited to the rotary-wing CAS mission. 

Also, I do not doubt the professionalism of any U.S. service member--merely that it takes more than good hardware to perform this mission properly. 
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline SectorNine50

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2009, 05:42:47 AM »
I've never seen the Apache used for true Close Air Support, and unless somethings changed, I don't really think Army doctrine supports their use as such.  [Oversimplification disclaimer!!!]  The Army chooses to use Apaches as more of a maneuver unit and it conforms more to an interdiction mission than true CAS.  Is the aircraft capable of CAS?  Absolutely, the weaponry and systems available to an Apache pilot are superb and well suited to the rotary-wing CAS mission. 

Also, I do not doubt the professionalism of any U.S. service member--merely that it takes more than good hardware to perform this mission properly. 
I've heard of the Apache as a tank-buster CAS, but usually from safe or longer range positions and/or night missions.  Problem with helo's doing CAS is they are incredibly prone to fire.  A10's can get in, kill, and then get out very quickly and take tons of damage in the process.  One of the main reasons the A10 is so effective.

Then again, I'm just a civilian reading what is published and from aquaintences who were in the military
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Offline allaire

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2009, 07:23:39 AM »
It mainly boils down to intel.  Most fratricide incidents take place because of poor or just bad intel.  I hate to say it but friendly fire is not a new thing, there have been FF incidents going back a long way back in warfare history.  Once again it's just more well know now when these things happen because of news, the internet, and people who say things on the condition of anonymity because they aren't allowed to talk about the things.
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Offline Ghosth

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Re: A-10 warthog too close to Brits.
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2009, 07:24:35 AM »
In war friendly fire is going to happen, granted you try to prevent it, try to setup policy's and safety rules.

But you can never fully penetrate the fog of war, and prevent all accidents from happening.
Simply not possible to fully foresee all possible interactions and consequences.