Author Topic: H-1 saw combat--check yer sources  (Read 5283 times)

Nath-BDP

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« on: October 27, 2000, 02:35:00 PM »
This is from "Focke-Wulfe Ta 152: The Story of the Luftwaffe's late-war high-altitude fighter" by Deitmar Harmann.

On page 101 there is this picture with caption:

 

The Werknummer is 150 168.

And on page 114 is the last part of the list of aircraft produced or canceled at Cottbus here I found the Werknummer for 'Green 9'.

 

Note: it says last combat flight by Willi Reschke.

And on to the combat report on Pages 104-105:

"On 24 April 1945, during the Battle of Berlin, there were engagements with Yak9s. Once again the Stabbschwarm put up three pairs of fighters. These accompanied II Gruppe, which carried out low-level attacks against Russian positions. Since there was no contact with enemy aircraft, the Stabbschwarm was ordered to reconnoiter over Berlin. There was an encounter with Yak 9s in poor visibility. In the ensuing dogfight the Stabbschwarm lost Hptm. Hermann Stahl and his Ta 152. Four Yak9s were shot down, two by Obfw. Willi Reschke and two by Obfw. Walter Loos (Green 4). The dissarray in command of the last days of the war makes it impossible to date the last mission with certainty, but it was probably on 30 April 1945. On that day walter Loos shot down another Yak-9. The Ta 152 had shot down 10 enemy aircraft and lost 2. The last transfer of the Stabbschwarm was to Leck in Schleswig-Holstein. All remaining Ta 152s were handed over to the British. While other Ta 152s were scrapped, "Green 9" (WNr. 150 168) was spared and was flown to England in the bely of an Ar 232."

"This Ta 152 was last flown by Willi Reschke. The Ta 152, now designated Air Min 11, was tested by famous test pilot Eric Brown during a flight from Farnborough to Brize Norton...

... The chapter on the operational career of the Ta 152 ends with a sentence by Willi Reschke. "The Ta 152 (H-1 duh) was my life insurance in the last days of the war."

Ok so the Werknummer 150 168 aircraft was definatly in service by JG 301 in the closing weeks of April and Willi Reschke shot down 2 Yak 9s over Berlin in this aircraft on 24 April.

From "Luftwaffe Aircraft in Profile"

 

 



funked

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2000, 02:51:00 PM »
U Da Man!

LJK Raubvogel

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2000, 03:00:00 PM »
Great stuff Nath.

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Offline Westy

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2000, 03:36:00 PM »
 That's all you have to do. SHOW the info.
 Now all you would need to dop is convince Pyro the info is good and wah-luh!

  -Westy

 p.s what did he shoot with. I don't see a single gun on that aircraft. And they didn't remove the  armament from captured aircraft at the end of the war.


[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 10-27-2000).]

Nath-BDP

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2000, 03:59:00 PM »
They must have removed the armament before this photo was taken at Farnbourough, but you can see a small hole in the wingroot leading edges--the Ta 152 had 2x 20mm in the wingroots and 1 Mk 108 in Motorkannon installation.

Offline Jigster

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2000, 04:02:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
They must have removed the armament before this photo was taken at Farnbourough, but you can see a small hole in the wingroot leading edges--the Ta 152 had 2x 20mm in the wingroots and 1 Mk 108 in Motorkannon installation.

Can you prove your proof is really proof?

 

- Jig


Nath-BDP

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2000, 04:17:00 PM »
Go away.

Offline Vermillion

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2000, 04:41:00 PM »
Nice work, seriously  

Now you have convinced me that potentially the second to last Ta152, ever built (42 out of 43 if I remember right), saw action in the last nine days of the war, and it was a H1.

But did it have both MW50 and GM1?

Out of the very same book, on page 91, second column, second sentence.

"It is not known whether later Ta-152H-1's, with MW50 or GM1 power boost were flown in action, and former pilots are also unable to confirm this". When the author is referencing the "later" aircraft, he means the production aircraft and not the prototype aircraft.

Also lets look at the last deliveries of the Ta152's.  From page 109, concerning delivered aircraft.

"Eighteen more Ta152H-O's were accepted in December 1944". <snip> "Twenty more Ta152H were accepted in January 1945 and the last three in February. After this production at Cottbus ended for good due to missing components and relocation measures."

Note he doesn't say if the last 23 delivered were either H-0's or H-1's, and lets not forget that only 43 total were built.

"Now on 16 January 1945 Neuhausen, was attacked by approximately forty Lightnings and Mustangs, destroying fourteen brand new Ta-152H and damaging another."  These were the aircraft delivered in January that were waiting to be picked up by JG301.  So of the 20 aircraft delivered in January, 14 were destroyed and another heavily damaged. So only 6 of these aircraft were actually delivered to the combat unit.

So giving you the benefit of the doubt, there were at best 9 Ta152-H1's that saw service with JG301. And this is unconfirmed.

Most likely only the last 3 aircraft delivered in February were H1's.

To support this notice that the only planes identified in the book as H1's in photo's were were werk #'s 167 (p.112), 168 (p.118), and 169 (p.116).  And werk # 169, when captured was not in a flyable condition missing a propellor and other equipment(p.116).

All other captured 152's in the book are identified as H0's.

Also notice that the last delivery of 20 aircraft are werk numbers up thru 040, and then the last 3 jumped up to number 167-169, potentially indicating the point where the production switched from H0's to H1's. But that admittedly, is my own guess given the data available.

So in conclusion, I was wrong. I apologize. Congratulations on your research and digging thru these books.

Potentially up to 9, but most likely only 3, Ta152-H1's were delivered to JG/301. But at least one saw combat service during the last nine days of the war.

Now, my last question for you Nath and the rest of the Luftwaffe contingent. Under your own definition, does this meet either of the typical two conditions we look at in Aces High. "Produced in significant numbers?" and or "Did it ever see combat?".

I personally will accept you guys decision either way. But be careful, because whichever way you decide, I plan to remember for the future when you start debating this same issue for other aircraft.

So whats your answer?

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Vermillion
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Nath-BDP

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2000, 04:53:00 PM »
Well it saw combat, unlike the P51H.



Offline Staga

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2000, 04:54:00 PM »
Dont you think those bombed planes too "saw" some combat  

Offline Toad

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2000, 04:59:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
I personally will accept you guys decision either way. But be careful, because whichever way you decide, I plan to remember for the future when you start debating this same issue for other aircraft.

So whats your answer?


Why do I get the feeling that Verm is stretched way up on his toes with a 12 pound sledge at full extension and just waiting to let the hammer drop?

 

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Nath-BDP

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2000, 05:01:00 PM »
btw Verm just FYI the MW 50 and GM1 systems were 169 kg and the extra Fuel Injection system on the H-1 was 296 kg... H-0 was much lighter.

H-0 would be nice even without Mw50/gm1

Offline Wardog

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2000, 06:26:00 PM »
P51H did fly in the Pacific theater in WWII.With 555 produced and in combat service,i think its a winner  

Dog out...

Nath-BDP

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2000, 06:35:00 PM »
Sorry, the P51H never saw any combat in any war. -P51 in action.


Offline brady

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H-1 saw combat--check yer sources
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2000, 06:45:00 PM »
  In captain Eric Browns book Wings of The Luftwaffe,he stats that on his flight in the Ta 152 he was unable to test the boost systems for either GM-1 or WM50 do to the fact that they did not have eny on hand at their test establishment,In other words this aircraft "green 9" did have those systems on board.
  Also some of my reference sources state that a total of around 170 Ta-152 were built ,I assume this was for all types,and if these aircraft were built and were in part interdicted do to combat prior to their arrival at their intended combat unit does this not qualify as combat?

     Brady