Author Topic: P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson  (Read 4205 times)

Offline Widewing

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« on: February 02, 2001, 07:36:00 PM »
A few months before Robert Johnson died (December 27th, 1998), I conducted nearly five hours of telephone interviews with Bob over the course of three weeks. I managed to record all but the first hour. During our conversations, we discussed the tactics he employed while battling the Luftwaffe. The following are some excerpts of our discussions:

CCJ: I have read an article about you and the tactics you used, that described you as one of the first fighter pilots to truly fight in the vertical plane.

RSJ: I don't know about that, there were others who fought that way.

CCJ: But not in the Thunderbolt....

RSJ: No, I guess not, at least when we first went operational.

CCJ: Can you describe how you used vertical maneuvering to your advantage, especially in the heavy-weight Jug?

RSJ: I think that you need to understand that everyone thought that the P-47 was a deathtrap. RAF pilots told us that we wouldn't have a chance against single-engine fighters. Those of us who had been flying the P-47 for a while knew otherwise, but there was nothing we could say that would convince the British, or the guys in the 4th.

CCJ: Guys in the 4th? You mean the 4th Fighter Group?

RSJ: Yeah. They were not at all happy trading in their Spitfires for the Thunderbolt.

CCJ: Didn't the 56th surrender their P-47s to the 4th after you arrived?

RSJ: Yes, we were told that we would be getting new planes.

CCJ: I'll bet that struck a nerve in the 56th.

RSJ: It sure did. We already had hundreds of hours in P-47Bs and Cs. No other group of pilots in the ETO had anywhere near our experience in the Thunderbolt. So naturally, we were not happy to hand them over to another Group. In retrospect, it was obviously a good idea. We realized as soon as we got into combat that there was no substitute for actual combat missions under your belt. Anyway, we trained the 4th on the Thunderbolt and then waited for what seemed like forever, to get our new planes.

CCJ: To get back to tactics, how did your tactics evolve?

RSJ: My tactics were rooted in what I had learned flying the P-47 in the States. We could always find some Navy Corsairs over Long Island Sound. We would bounce them, or they would try to bounce us. Usually, we had the advantage in height so the Corsairs were a lot busier than us.

CCJ: I take it that you seldom let an opportunity to jump them go waste?

RSJ: No, we usually went straight for them.

CCJ: Didn't they see you rolling in?

RSJ: Sometimes. We tried to use the sun to hide in. If they didn't spot us, we would lay it on them good. Their first hint that we were there was when we tore through them at high speed and zoomed back up above them.

CCJ: How did they react?

RSJ: They would usually scatter every which way. We would come back down on them again, but they would be alert now and break into us.

CCJ: I guess that is the point where it would break down into a big brawl?

RSJ: It did at first. The Corsair was just a fast as the Thunderbolt was around 20,000 feet., and it was very maneuverable. As we mixed it up and lost altitude, the Corsair became a real handful to outfly with our P-47Bs. I discovered that the Corsair pilots did not like fighting up hill. What I mean is, they would not or maybe could not follow you if you pulled the nose up into a steep climb. I realized that the Corsair couldn't climb any better than the P-47, and would tend to spin out of a vertical stall. I also found that that any P-47, even the P-47B, could out-dive the Corsair. So that gave me two important advantages that I would use every chance I got.

CCJ: So these mock dogfights helped you learn how to exploit the inherent strengths of the Thunderbolt.

RSJ: Yes, very much so.

CCJ: What about facing the Fw 190 and Messerschmitts?

RSJ: The Focke Wulf reminded me of the Corsair. It was much smaller of course, but they both had similar maneuverability. It wasn't quite as fast, but turned well. It was unusual to find Focke Wulfs above us. Generally, we held the advantage in height.
The Me 109 was another story. They could often be seen up above 35,000 feet.

CCJ: What was the biggest mistake a German pilot could make?

RSJ: Trying to escape in a dive or split-S.

CCJ: Why?

RSJ: Because they were not going to out-run the Thunderbolt in a dive.

CCJ: You could catch them without a problem.

RSJ: I could catch them in nothing flat.

CCJ: Really?

RSJ: Absolutely. One thing about the 190, if the pilot continued his dive below 7 or 8 thousand feet, he could not pull out before he hit the ground. I guess they had compressibility problems or the elevators got too stiff. Whatever the problem was, I watched several of them pancake in before they could level off.

CCJ: What about the Thunderbolt?

RSJ: It did not have that problem down that low. Up high, above 25,000 feet, yes, I could get into compressibility and the elevators locked up like they were in concrete. But once you got down to thicker air, you regained control.

CCJ: So, what would you do if suddenly discovered a German fighter on your tail?

RSJ: you mean in close?

CCJ: Yes.

RSJ: That depended a lot on how fast the German was going. If he was moving much faster, I'd simply side-step him by rolling.
The German would whiz right on by and I would firewall the throttle and take off after him. If he was a smart German, he would climb straight ahead. If he was a dumb German, he would try to turn. If he turns, his higher speed will make for a wide turn, and I will cut across and be all over him. If he dives, I can follow and eventually catch up. Now, if the German's speed was close to mine, then I had another emergency maneuver that always worked for me.

CCJ: And, that was?

RSJ: I would pull the nose straight up into a vertical rolling spiral, usually to the left. You would stall out, but so would the guy behind you. That killed his advantage.

CCJ: So, what you are describing sounds like a rolling hammerhead stall, right?

RSJ: That's a pretty good description.

CCJ: So what happens next?

RSJ: Well, the enemy would stall first because the Jug's mass allowed to retain its,
er...

CCJ: Energy?

RSJ: Yes, energy. The P-47's mass allowed it to retain its energy better and it stalled a few seconds after the enemy plane. The German would snap over and head down. Except, now I was right behind him and there was no getting away.

CCJ: Wouldn't he still be directly behind you?

RSJ: No. Pulling up so suddenly always caught them by surprise. The second or two that it took for them to react took care of that.

CCJ: Why did you roll?

RSJ: Because that killed my speed faster than the enemy if he didn't, which gained me the advantage of being to his rear as he zoomed up. If he rolled too, that also worked to my advantage because it killed his speed faster than mine.

CCJ: So, you would get the advantage no matter what, if the German also pulled up into a vertical climb. What if he didn't follow?

RSJ: Then he would just fly by. If he still wanted to fight, he could extend out and turn around, but I would be waiting for him.
If he turned either left or right, I would be on him in a few seconds.

CCJ: The smart Germans just kept on going when you pulled up.

RSJ: I never ran across one smart enough to keep going. They all tried to follow.

CCJ: How many got away after falling for your trap?

RSJ: I really can't say for sure. Some got away because he had friends to cover his tail. Besides, that maneuver was not so much to get him, but to prevent him from getting me. In that respect, it always worked.

CCJ: Much has been written about the incredible roll rate of the Fw 190. Was it as good as they say?

RSJ: The 190 rolled very fast. But, so did the Thunderbolt.

CCJ: But not as quickly as the Focke Wulf.

RSJ: I would say just as fast. I never had a 190 out-roll my Jug. Never.

CCJ: What about a situation where you end up in rolling scissors with a Focke Wulf? Do you follow him by reversing the turn too?

RSJ: No. Whenever you get into a series of reverses, the airplane tends to mush-out a bit when you reverse your turn. The Jug tended to mush a bit more than the 190. The way to avoid this was roll into the reverse.

CCJ: I'm not sure I follow you.

RSJ: Picture this in your mind. The 190 rolls into a hard left. You follow, firing as he crosses your guns. Suddenly, he reverses his turn, hard right. Rather than reverse, you continue rolling left until you are in a right bank, just like the 190. Now, pull hard. No mushing. If he reverses again, you roll left and fire as he crosses your guns again. If he doesn't reverse, I pull the nose high and roll out behind him.

CCJ: A high yo-yo?

RSJ: Of a sorts, yes. Continuing the roll simply eliminated the mushing caused by reversing a turn and I could would get a clear shot every time the enemy reversed.

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

RSJ: It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

CCJ: I remember reading where you thought that your P-47 was the fastest fighter in the ETO.

RSJ: I still believe that it was.

CCJ: Really?

RSJ: Sure. My second Jug, a D-5 was the best P-47 that I ever flew, and I flew them all, including the P-47M which the 56th got near the end of the war.

CCJ: What made this one Thunderbolt so fast?

RSJ: Several things. My crew sanded every joint smooth, and waxed it to a high gloss. Factory technical reps showed my crew chief, Pappy Gould, how to adjust the wastegates to keep the boost pressure higher than normal. My D-5, which I named Lucky, had water injection. I never used the water injection in combat. I didn't need it. From time to time I'd switch it on, push the throttle up to 72" of manifold pressure and the head rest would smack me from behind. I would let her run for a few minutes just for the fun of it.

CCJ: 72 inches!? Did you ever take note of your airspeed during one of those runs?

RSJ: Of course.

CCJ: And....... how fast did it go?

RSJ: I've seen just over 300 at altitude.

CCJ: 300 indicated?

RSJ: Yes.

CCJ: What was your altitude?

RSJ: I guess it was right around 32,000 feet.

CCJ: Geez, thats well over 450 mph!

RSJ: Oh, I figure closer to 470.

CCJ: Maybe you did have the fastest fighter in the ETO after all.

RSJ: Like I said, Lucky was the fastest.

CCJ: What ever happened to Lucky?

RSJ: She was lost in a mid-air collision over the North Sea. I don't recall the pilot's name who was flying her on that ramrod. I was very upset. Lucky got at least 24 enemy aircraft and was the best Jug I ever flew. She was trouble free and I never had a single abort while flying her.

CCJ: Bob, one final item before I let you go tonight.

RSJ: Sure.

CCJ: Is it true that you flew two 25 hour tour extensions after your 25th victory, and that you never were involved in a single combat during that time?

RSJ: Basically, yes. I took a 25 hour extension with the idea that as soon as I got 2 more enemy aircraft, I would stop there and go home. After the 25 hours were up and I hadn't had a chance to even fire at an enemy airplane, so I convinced the brass to give me another 25 hour extension under the same understanding. Finally, on the last mission of that tour, I got two more and they sent me home.

CCJ: Why do you think that German fighters became so hard to come by at that time. When was that, in April and May of 1944?

RSJ: I can't say for sure, but we now know that the long range of the P-38 and P-51 caused the Luftwaffe to pull back many of their fighter squadrons deep into Germany. This makes sense when you think that we could put up over 600 P-47s for a ramrod. If they pull back beyond the range of the Jugs, we won't see much of them. Another thing was simple bad luck. When the Germans did come up to fight, they attacked the bombers well away from our assigned area. So, it really was a combination of factors.

CCJ: So, what was the date of your last two victories?

RSJ: May 8th, 1944.

CCJ: Well, Bob, I'll let you go now. Thanks for your time. This will make for a terrific article.

RSJ: It was my pleasure.

CCJ: Are you up for another discussion in a week or two?

RSJ: If you don't mind my long stories, sure. You can call almost anytime.

CCJ: Believe me, it's an honor for me. By the way, Art Heiden, your remember me talking about Art, Art wants to talk to you about Jack. Do you mind if I pass your number to him?

RSJ: Please do.

CCJ: Well, thanks again and have a good evening.

RSJ: You to.


I will post more of our discussions after I get it all transposed from the tapes.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline -ammo-

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2001, 08:08:00 PM »
TY very much Widewing. I read several books from members of the 56th fighter group, or books about them. Bob Johnson thought very highly of the Jug. He stated that after the fied Mod of the big Prop that his jug could climb with anything the LW could put up. Well, I wonder if that was true or just his total faith in that AC! He also stated in his book about the roll rate of his jug.

anyway, appreciate the good read

<S>

ammo
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Citabria

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2001, 08:15:00 PM »
that Lucky D-5 sounds like a hell of a jug  
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

TheWobble

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2001, 08:19:00 PM »
<exerpt from Wobble's Jug tactics>

"press enter 3 times,
climb into F6f."


I have never been able to grasp the Jug, I can fly almost everything pretty well but I CANNOT fly the jug <shrug>

Offline Rocket

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2001, 08:39:00 PM »
Awesome!
 

S!
Rocket

Offline Pongo

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2001, 08:46:00 PM »
Wow.
Thanks WW.
Sounds like we should perk Lucky.

Offline Westy

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2001, 09:31:00 PM »
 I'm speachless for this is some fantasic reading. I don't know how to thank you Widewing. <S>  But I'll think of something  

 -Westy

Offline Widewing

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2001, 10:00:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -ammo-:
TY very much Widewing. I read several books from members of the 56th fighter group, or books about them. Bob Johnson thought very highly of the Jug. He stated that after the fied Mod of the big Prop that his jug could climb with anything the LW could put up. Well, I wonder if that was true or just his total faith in that AC! He also stated in his book about the roll rate of his jug.

anyway, appreciate the good read

<S>

ammo

I was somewhat skeptical about Johnson's insistance about the P-47s rolling ability. However, there are two things to keep in mind. Johnson was never discussing a snap roll. He describes a tightened barrel roll, more of corkscrew spiral than a snap roll along the linear axis. The second thing was related to me by Gabby Gabreski. Actually, he was talking to someone else and I was simply eavesdropping.  

Gabby said that Johnson was one of the strongest men he had ever met. He described Johnson as having forearms like "Popeye". Considering that one limiting factor in high speed rolling is the ability of the pilot to deflect the ailerons, I must wonder if Johnson's impressive upper-body strength gave him an advantage.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Sancho

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2001, 10:56:00 PM »
Widewing, thank you for this--made my day.  


Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2001, 11:53:00 PM »
Widewing, thanks a lot for those readings, will have the other ones with great pleasure.

What I noted, but it's my own opinion only, u may not share it, is that most Aces described tactics that would not really work in the MA. I think it's related to the fact that we have way more combat hours than them and most of the germans they encountered were newbies at the end of the war.

But the thinking process is the same for them and us (I'm not comparing me as an ace, far from that), but we all analysed what was the best way to fight into our beloved ride using the weackness of the eni plane. Our luck is that we can even testflight the "eni plane" to see strenght/weackness.

Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
------------------------

-towd_

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2001, 01:31:00 AM »
thanks wildwing , wonderful stuff

Offline Tyro48

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2001, 03:10:00 AM »
Absolutely outstanding widewing, jesus the thrill of being lucky enough to talk with Johnson damn!

Offline danish

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2001, 05:19:00 AM »
Thx Widewing.Good stuff!

danish

Offline danish

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2001, 05:32:00 AM »
Thought you might be interesred in this little tale, as an apropos to P47 versus 109.

From Priens great JG53 books vol. 3

_____________________________ __

   26 December 1944: 11 and IV Gruppen were sent patrol-
 ling for enemy fighter-bombers , while 111 Gruppe apparently
 saw no action.
      Maj.  Mcimberg also had to lead the Gruppe on this day as
 by now none of his veteran Staffelkapitdne were still available.
 Oblt.  Rollwage had been assigned to II/JG 106 and Oblt.  Seeger
 had gone on leave, and to make things even worse Hptm.  Ham-
 mer fell ill and was put out of action indefinitely.  "Jule"
 Mcimberg's description of the mission on this the second day
 of Christmas (Boxing Day) 1944 appears below; however there
 was a story behind the mission as Fritz Adelmann, then a
 Feldwebel and mechanic in charge of Hptm.  Alfred Hammer's
 machine, described:

           "Since his own machine was apparently unservice-
      able on this day, prior to takeoff Major Meimberg de-
      manded Hptm.  Hammer's aircraft; however the latter was
      very attached to his 'Yellow 1' and had ordered it reported
      unserviceable 'just in case,' even though it was in tip-top
       condition.  He simply couldn't bear the idea of it being
      crashed by someone else.  It was a beauty too, polished to
      a high gloss, equipped with a high-altitude engine and a
      gun camera.  Major Meimberg brushed aside my objec-
      tions and so '1' was rolled over to the Gruppenstab, where
      it was checked over and found serviceable - as it turned
      out there were no repercussions from my phony unser-
      viceable report."

      In fact Alfred Hammer's aircraft was the same Bf 109 G-
 14/AS that he had been issued at Hustedt at the end of July
 1944 and which he had flown on most missions since.  Now
 Julius Meimberg's account:

           "While in the process of taking off, shortly before
      liftoff, 1 saw that a bunch of enemy fighters - 1 think they
      were Spitfires - were moving into position to attack us
      from behind.  They caught us at the most dangerous mo-
      ment; one is helpless during takeoff and landing, unable
      to evade an attack.  It was too late to abort the takeoff and
      so after lifting off 1 tried to get away through the valleys at
      low-level and then climb. 1 was alone.  My Gruppe had
      been completely scattered by the surprise attack and sev-
      eral pillars of dark smoke near the airfield made me sus-
      pect the worse. 1 was fuming, full of rage that they had
      been able to run roughshod over us like that.
           Meanwhile 1 had reached an altitude of perhaps five
      to six thousand meters (it may have been somewhat less)
      and tried to figure out what was happening while hanging
      all alone in the bright sunshine above the wintry landscape.
      At once 1 sighted a flight of Thunderbolts beneath me;
      they were flying in line astern, obviously searching for
      worthwhile targets on the ground.  In any case it wasn't
       very difficult at all for me to come down from behind and
   position myself behind the last one. 1 fired, and the effect
   was the same as if 1 had stirred up a homet's nest.  The
   other three turned and opened fire, but with my speed ad-
   vantage 1 was able to climb back up to safety.  The Thun-
   derbolt was inferior to the Me 109 in terms of climbing
   ability and indeed we had our own tactic for each enemy
   aircraft type.  With its great weight the P-47 was simply
   faster in the dive, consequently we could not evade it by
   diving.  As well it had tremendous firepower and - most of
   all: where there was one Thunderbolt there were others.
        And so 1 climbed back up, had a victory, and resumed
   my circling.  Soon 1 spotted another flight of Thunderbolts
   below me, again in line astern, again searching for targets
   on the ground, and again 1 got the trailing machine and
   was able to climb away.  Full of anger, 1 was intent on
   avenging in my own way the attack that had struck our
   Gruppe while taking off.
        1 repeated the procedure with a third flight; but this
   time 1 got too close to the P-47 1 was firing at, so that
   pieces of the downed bird flew about my ears, and when 1
   pulled up 1 was trailing white smoke.  Once again 1 lamented
   the absence of a radiator shutoff valve.  This time 1 de-
   cided at once to bail out, for trying to descend to safety in
   my crippled bird would have been hopeless as the sky was
   now full of aircraft, all of them hostile.  As well with a
   damaged radiator 1 had little time; in only a few minutes a
   piston would seize and that would be it; it just didn't work
   without coolant.
       1 was quickly overtaken by the other fighters as 1 was
   preparing to bail out.  They caught me in a left turn; a burst
   went straight through the aircraft and 1 changed direction.
   After the experiences we had had with being shot at while
    in parachutes - especially by the Americans - 1 let myself
     fall and did not pull the ripcord until - true to our old rule
     - 1 could either see the chickens or count the branches. 1
     sailed toward a farmhouse but then to my horror 1 realized
     that for the last few meters 1 was being blown toward a
     large tree. 1 came down through the tree without doing
     any damage.  There was no need to go into the bent-knee
     position, for the chute had caught in the tree and 1 was
     deposited quite gently on to the ground.
         1 had come down right next to the 'Schaichhof,' a
     large farm south of Rutesheim/Leonberg; farm workers
     came rushing out of the house and they were speaking
     Polish or Russian - POWs who had been forced to work
     on the farm.  Blood was oozing out of my right fur-lined
     boot, and so the workers carried me to the house where 1
     was received by the farmer.  He took me into the 'cold
     magnificence' - the good room which was usually un-
     heated.  The Christmas tree was still standing and the gifts
     lay on the table. 1 was laid on a sofa.  Soon a civilian came
     in who had arrived by bicycle - he still had the trouser
     clips on his legs.  He introduced himself as Dr. Hartmann,
     the father of 'Bubi' Hartmann; he asked me if 1 knew his
     son.  Of course 1 had heard of him, but at the time 1 had
     never met him in person.  Dr. Hartmann then proceeded to
     apply a temporary dressing and a short time later 1 was
     driven to the hospital in B6blingen.  There they put on a
     plaster cast, and for the next few days 1 had to stay in bed
     with my leg in a cast."

     The three P-47s which Maj.  Meimberg shot down were
 victories 48 to 50.
     11 Gruppe's losses were considerable. 6/JG 53 had two
 pilots killed: Oblt.  Ludorf was shot down immediately after
 taking off from Rutesheim; he bailed out but was too low for
 his parachute to open.  As a result Leo Ludorf fell to his death
 near Rutesheim.  The other victim was Gefr.  Meermann, who
 was also shot down and crashed to his death in his "Yellow 8"
 about 500 meters east of Wimsheim. 8 Staffel reported one
 wounded: Gefr.  Ruland was forced to belly-land his battle-dam-
 aged "Blue 6" near Flacht, a few kilometers northwest of
 Rutesheim.  He suffered serious injuries in the forced landing.
 Altogether II/JG 53 lost six of its Messerschmitts shot down
 immediately after takeoff; two pilots escaped injury, either
 bailing out successfully or making a forced landing somewhere.
 Precise details are not known.


_______________________


"Jule" Meimberg survived the war, and still lives - and flyes on occation - till this day.

For more on Meimberg: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/6458/meimberg.html

regards

danish

   


Offline StSanta

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2001, 05:39:00 AM »
After the experiences we had had with being shot at while in parachutes - especially by the Americans - 1 let myself
fall and did not pull the ripcord until - true to our old rule - 1 could either see the chickens or count the branches.


HTC has again succesfully managed to model reality.

Bail low, and ya might live.

Bail high, and you'll get shot.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch