Author Topic: P47 vs 190  (Read 18725 times)

Offline STEELE

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P47 vs 190
« on: February 23, 2011, 06:09:35 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz8QsBxcOMw
The fight at 0:30 between a 190 A7 (basically an A8 with less boost) and a 47Dxx
Notice how the 190 follows the Tbolt thru several tight turns, pulling lead several times, even after several rotations, the Tbolt simply cant turn tight enough to shake the 190.
Thoughts?

edit  the 47 looks to be a razorback model, which is the best turning jug
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 06:14:59 PM by STEELE »
The Kanonenvogel had 6 rounds per pod, this is not even close to being open for debate.

Offline Blooz

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2011, 06:32:27 PM »
The 190 pilot probably been flying for years with many kills under his belt. The 47 pilot was probably in his first fight.

Air combat all about controlling your aircraft better than the other guy. I good pilot in a crappy plane will have a big advantage over a noob in a great plane. You see that fact every day in AH.
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Offline STEELE

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2011, 06:56:30 PM »
Seems like the Jug pilot was able to foil a few guns solutions by using ailron input, also I think a n00b pilot would have stalled out by the 2nd or 3rd rotation. I tried to duplicate this fight in a 190A8 vs a D11, guess what happened?   :(
The Kanonenvogel had 6 rounds per pod, this is not even close to being open for debate.

Offline Imowface

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2011, 07:03:28 PM »
dont know about the 190 but did you use flaps in the P-47 when you tried to re enact?
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Offline Urchin

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2011, 10:07:26 PM »
A looooong looooong time ago the 190a5 used to be able to beat up on the P-47s in a knife fight. 

Then the code governing airflow and flaps were changed, and all the 190s went from being merely unmanuverable to being awful. The P-51s got hit with the nerf bat even harder... the P-51D went from being a roughly even match for a 109G-10 (todays K-4) to an easy kill for pretty much anything in a fight. I think the P-47 benefited from the change, but that may just be vis a vis the P-51 and 190 series. The F4Us and 109s were obvious winners - both series vaulted up to somewhere near the Spitfires in terms of 'turnyness'. Granted, the F4Us (with the exception of the -4) are still not hard to kill if you are in a Spit. They can turn with you, but you can get them turning and then go vertical and they won't have the power to keep up. 

The 109s on the other hand.... a 109F4 can hang with a pretty decent spit driver. The Spit 16 is still a better plane, but it isn't a blowout.

Now, things may have changed in the years since I stopped playing, but I'm pretty sure the flaps thing was the last major revision to the FMs.

Offline Blooz

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2011, 10:29:29 PM »
Seems like the Jug pilot was able to foil a few guns solutions by using ailron input, also I think a n00b pilot would have stalled out by the 2nd or 3rd rotation. I tried to duplicate this fight in a 190A8 vs a D11, guess what happened?   :(

How'd you duplicate this fight?

It's gun camera footage. You don't know their altitude, fuel states, speed, angles, G load, experience...NOTHING!

These guys were in a fight for their lives FOR REAL!! When it's real you only get one chance to do it right. That day the German was in the right spot at the right time and the 47 couldn't change the outcome. It doesn't matter what you can do here. All you can do is speculate. That's it. Nothing else. The conditions you are under aren't in any way similar to theirs, that day, many years ago in a real war fighting for their real lives.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 10:31:38 PM by Blooz »
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Offline Jabberwock

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 12:43:51 AM »

The thing I noticed with the Fw 109 A7 vs P-47D match-up was the apparent low altitude of the dogfight. Admittedly, I could be wrong, as its hard to judge just how high or low they were.

The USAAF assessments of the P-47 vs the Fw 190 give the edge to the FW 190 below 10,000 ft and below 250 mph.

From the USAAF report:

4) Turning

(a) Turning and handling in excess of 250mph. The two airplanes alternately turned on each other's tail, holding in the turns as tightly as possible and alternating the turns first left then right. The P-47 easily outturned the Fw190 at 10,000ft and had to throttle back in order to keep from overrunning the FW190. The superiority of the P-47 in turning increased with altitude. The FW190 was very heavy in fore and aft control, vibrated excessively and tended to blackout the pilot.

(b) Turning and handling below 250mph. Turns were made so rapidly that it was impossible for the aircraft to accelerate. In making the usual rather flat turns in a horizontal plane, the FW190 was able to hang onto its propellor and turn inside the P-47. The FW190 was also able to accelerate suddenly and change to a more favourable position during the turn. However it was found the P-47 could get on the tail of the Fw190 by making a figure 8 in a vertical plane.

The P-47 used was a D-5 with ADI but no paddle bladed prop. The FW 190 was a A5/U8 – pr possibly a G-2, there are conflicting reports – with no cowling MGs and no outer wing cannon.

As usual: draw your own conclusions

Offline Chalenge

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 01:26:32 AM »
In making the usual rather flat turns in a horizontal plane, the FW190 was able to hang onto its propellor and turn inside the P-47.

Real professional language there. This is a perfect example of why this type of claim (anecdotal) cannot be taken into consideration... or at least carries very little weight.
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Offline STEELE

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 02:03:19 AM »
Blooz I might be wrong, but I think the ZLVA in your sig stands for Ze LuftVhiners Association   :aok
This is not anecdotal evidence, but rather filmed proof of the late 190A's superiority or at least equality with the Razorback Jug's turning ability. From the look of the ground, they seem to be passing through 10k (rough guess) in a slightly downward spiral. That's the scenario we tried to recreate. Pilot ability aside, I think the film proves late 190A's were not the bricks that they're portayed to be.    :noid  The footage seems to support the test report quoted by Jabbewock
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 02:17:23 AM by STEELE »
The Kanonenvogel had 6 rounds per pod, this is not even close to being open for debate.

Offline bozon

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 02:36:45 AM »
Quote
This video contains content from Sony Music Entertainment. It is not available in your country.
-- ban youtube.


From what I understand the film shows a 190 shotting down a P-47. If that is true, then it is a clear evidence that in a dogfight, a P47 will loose to the 190 unless the Jug pilot is a haxxor. HTC please fix your modeling.  :rolleyes:
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Offline Lusche

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2011, 02:51:50 AM »
-- ban youtube.


Almost every YT video posted here is unavailable to me because of the music used in it. I'm harldy even trying to click the links anymore.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2011, 03:05:12 AM »
I dont see anything in that film that disagrees with AH. I think you guys are reading too much into it.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2011, 03:07:49 AM »
Lusche its the German gun camera footage of FW190A? versus Lagg 5 P47D-11 and Mustang that you have seen before.

At the time of this posting there is no derogatory comment posted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq7MRXPSqr0

Not going to look through the rest of them but you can search for "Fw 190A-7 x P-47 Thunderbolt" (its a D-11) for the Jug video.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 03:12:12 AM by Chalenge »
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Offline pervert

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2011, 03:08:57 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz8QsBxcOMw
The fight at 0:30 between a 190 A7 (basically an A8 with less boost) and a 47Dxx
Notice how the 190 follows the Tbolt thru several tight turns, pulling lead several times, even after several rotations, the Tbolt simply cant turn tight enough to shake the 190.
Thoughts?

edit  the 47 looks to be a razorback model, which is the best turning jug

Its hard to tell what kind of speed all this is happening at, it could be the jug doesn't have the E to turn but has to keep bleeding E to stay out of the guns of the FW, it might be the cut of the film? but it seems as if the jug IS turning tighter at the start and the FW is flying looser. Even if your oppenent is in a great turning plane and you in a bad turning plane with position on him if you have the E to turn and he doesn't you will get guns on him.


Offline Oldman731

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2011, 08:20:17 AM »
Real professional language there. This is a perfect example of why this type of claim (anecdotal) cannot be taken into consideration... or at least carries very little weight.

Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

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