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Author Topic: Should the Spitfire Mk.XIV be clipped?  (Read 2510 times)
Butcher
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« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2012, 03:33:53 PM »

22,000ft is rather higher than the Mosquito Mk VI usually went.  tongue

I tried to intercept buffs in a mossy this tour, around 22-24k it crapped out on me, I couldn't catch B24s =(
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Delirium
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« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2012, 03:37:26 PM »

Unperk the Spit14 and see what happens. I'll bet the results will be comparable to the Ta152 when it was unperked; hardly a ripple in the MA overall.
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bustr
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« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2012, 03:59:11 PM »

From 2005 and why I chose the G10 and it's 20mm to counter the spit14.



It is always HTC's goal that planes perform like the real thing.

HTC Never modiefies a planes performance based on anything but our best interpitation of the flight data we have availible to us.

We do not have a bias towards any countries planes.

There are generic systems we use that people then try turn into we have a bias.

These include things like flaps.We make generic modeling choices on how to impliment certain systesm Thinks like, do flaps move to any position or do they have preset positions. These have absolutly nothing to do with a bias.We could model all types of flaps systems, but does it realy make much different to the plane.

People who tend to do reaserch on flight data tend to cheary pick the data. This is typicly because the plane they are researching is a plane they have always liked.   I.E. on the FW performance being to slow comes from one report, but they wish to use another report with a better climb rate.

People also tend to belive that there is one set of golden /(Compltly real) numbers on the performance of an airplane. This is far from reality.

Finaly It always amazes me, how people clame things changed, with the 109s this version none of there performance changed. The 109k4 perfomes exatly like the 109G10 did.

The F190D9 has not changed since 2.00 was released. So have you ever flown since 2.00 wilbus or are you refering to pre 2.00 dora?


HiTech
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bustr - POTW 1st Wing

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Karnak
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« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2012, 04:07:45 PM »

I tried to intercept buffs in a mossy this tour, around 22-24k it crapped out on me, I couldn't catch B24s =(
The Mosquito Mk VI has low blown engines and peaks in speed at 384mph at 13,000ft.  I would very much love to see the Mosquito NF.30 added which would have a peak speed of about 425mph at about 28,000ft.  I would definitely go bomber hunting in it.


Bustr,

I don't think that is saying what I think you think it is saying.  HiTech was not saying there isn't any performance difference between a real Bf109G-10 and a real Bf109K-4, he is saying that there isn't any difference in AH.  The AH Bf109G-10 was never modeled on the performance of a Bf109G-10, it was always a Bf109K-4, just named as a Bf109G-10 so that it could have gun options that the Bf109K-4 did not have.
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bustr
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« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2012, 04:25:03 PM »

Good then the gun option and the performance is the counter to the spit14.

As far as I can tell from research the performance of the two is so similare to leave it up to engineers to argue over it. And being that miniscule in differences I can see why the code for it in the game had no difference other than the gun options.

Even though the G10 assembly line was the same as the K4 but, an interim endevor waiting for the standardisation of the product then to be called K4. It has the potential for solving the usual game complaint of loss of coding production time and, the 30mm is the tool of a master K4 pilot which eliminates the K4 as a general foil to an arena filled with newbie spit14 enthusiests.

A win/win for the luft lovers and spit lovers. Not all luft lovers are happy with the Mk108 and many spit lovers dream of repitious lawn darting in that huge nosed monster. Or the luft lovers in the know dream of all the newbies hitting 450 and loosing control in a P51D style vulch dive........ Smiley
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bustr - POTW 1st Wing

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Karnak
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« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2012, 05:20:45 PM »

Good then the gun option and the performance is the counter to the spit14.
How?  I feel like we are having a fundamental miscommunication.

As I understand it, the Bf109G-10 in AH performed like a Bf109K-4 but was labeled as a Bf109G-10 to justify armament options the Bf109K-4 did not have while also being the Bf109K-4.

In AH2 model accuracy has increased (hence the 1942 Spitfire F.Mk IX no longer has .50 cal, rocket or bomb options of the 1944 Spitfire LF.Mk IX) and so the inaccurate armament options were removed and it was properly labeled as a Bf109K-4.

If HTC were to add the Bf109G-10 to AH it would not perform like the old Bf109G-10 because that was really a Bf109K-4.  A newly added Bf109G-10 would not perform like the old "Bf109G-10", it would be a completely new flight model with a top speed of about 426mph.
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Infidelz
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« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2012, 06:07:10 PM »

Oh good we are talking about guns. How about guns for the MK.XIVc? quad damage anyone?

"Mk XIVc..   unit 96....   Jan 44 - Dec 49....   4x 20mm (12)......................    1x 500lb & 2x 250lb \\

The Mk XIV was the first Spitfire to get the new Griffon engine.
It looks like 527 MKXIV were produced with the ‘c’ wing, housing 4x 20mm cannon.
The Mk XIV could also carry three bombs: 1x500lb and 2x250lb
Delivery of the Mk XIV began in Jan 44
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/fighter/supermarine-spitfire-mk-xiv.asp"

So we should replace the current one with a c variant and get the e wing with the bubble.

Spitfire F.XIV: Had 'C' wing.1 Used normal canopy.1
Spitfire F.XIVE: Had 'E' wing.1 Some wings were clipped for low altitude work.1 Bubble canopy.1
Spitfire FR.XIVE: Low level fighter and reconnaissance.1 Clipped wings.1 Bubble canopy.1 Oblique camera in the rear of the fuselage.1 An additional fuel tank was added to the fuselage.1

1. Aircraft of WWII, Stewart Wilson, 1998

Infidelz.

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Karnak
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« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2012, 06:12:22 PM »

That information is in error, Infidelz.  There were very few Mk XIV's with the c wing.  The bubble canopy is a completely separate thing from the c or e wings and was very rare.  No Mk XIV ever carried four 20mm cannons.

The Mk XIV we have in AH is representative of the most common configuration during the war, save for perhaps the boost setting being only +18lbs for WEP.  If they wanted to they could add the option to replace the two .50s with the four .303s.
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RTHolmes
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« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2012, 06:12:40 PM »

22,000ft is rather higher than the Mosquito Mk VI usually went.  tongue

yeah i was moaning about that on climbout, but its the only mossie version we have with guns/cannons and we were buff hunting. more versions pls Thumbs UP!
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Infidelz
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« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2012, 06:46:42 PM »

Maybe a bubble canopy clipped wing mossie with 24 cylander Napier engines!  Would be on topic. Put 4 mk 108s on it to be historical and we would be all set.

Seriously bubbles are delicious.
INFIDELZ.
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bustr
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« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2012, 06:49:14 PM »

Outside of scenarios, 99% of game fighting takes place at low altitiudes the spit14 is outlcassed in speed performance by the G10, G14 , K4, spit16, spit8, P51D and Yak9U. How many of us in a year fight above 20k such as it matters to the overal stability of the arena?

spit14 - 448@26,000 feet.
G10 - 426@24,280 feet.
K4 - 445@24,610 feet.

Who in the MA fights furballs and decisive arena battles up there? Additionaly from the Spitfire Performance pages:

No evidence has yet been found that +25 lbs boost was employed in service by Spitfire XIV squadrons prior to VE day. Even at +25 lbs. the Spitfire XIV still fell short of the sea level performance of the Tempest V and highly boosted Mustangs. There is clear documentation that 2nd TAF Spitfire XIVs had their Griffon engines set to +21 lbs boost. Its also clear that the Griffon engine was eventually approved for +25 lbs maximum combat boost. Although the Spitfire XIV's strength was in the medium and high altitude role, the paucity of Luftwaffe opposition led to the Squadrons engaging in ground attack, where flak was a much larger threat than Me 109s.

So what is your real antipathy to the spit14? All this G10 minutia we are bandying about has been repurposed into an obvious situational canard to manuver around the antipathy and resolve nothing about the spit14.

A G10 will run it down below 15k in general MA play and hose it full of 20mm. Along with getting those flaps out faster for over shoots and hanging stalls just like is performed with the K4 as SOP in the LWMA. It will be spit8/16 and poni picking fodder at the same time. Only the less experienced will follow it up to it's best altitiudes once or twice then forgo that pleasure as a fools errand. Since you cannot dive it like a poni and survive very often. You will know seeing one on high over your low furball will most often be to figure him for a long time carfully working his way down. Or preoccupied with why his warp12 brick has a mind of it's own. I've never popped the wings off the past G10 or present K4 by pulling up from a dive at 450+ like with the spit14.

I have survived more K4 poor shooting though than purposfull 109 with a 20mm in its nose in all the rides I fly other than from K4 expertin. Gets back to the probabilitys of acorns being hit by throwing lotsa rocks as a usfull tool for the less expertin 109 drivers.
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bustr - POTW 1st Wing

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Tank-Ace
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« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2012, 06:49:48 PM »

Whoever is saying a 109 needs to be added to counter the Spit 14 probably hasn't ended his two week trial. The K4 does quite well at alt vs a Spit 14.

I reject any request to add another spitfire or Me109 to the game, there are enough sub variants that this argument can stop - its been going on since Air warrior and frankly stupid. There are plenty PLENTY of aircraft that need to be added in game before another variant of either get added.

Quoted for truth. No more 109's or spitfires needed.

Areas where we are really lacking:

Russian bombers
Italian aircraft
Russian fighters, to a lesser extent
EW/British GV's
attack aircraft (particularly for the Germans, since they really lack a single engine fighter, or a decently survivable twin, that is capable of carrying 2k of ord or more. Though the Me-410 will help rectify this)
EW bombers (all nations)
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bozon
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« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2012, 07:11:20 PM »

yeah i was moaning about that on climbout, but its the only mossie version we have with guns/cannons and we were buff hunting. more versions pls Thumbs UP!
Yes, we must have the NFXXX! The mosquito line must be completed!
The mounted radar will only be an ornamental one I'm afraid.
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« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2012, 09:53:50 AM »

Bustr is suggesting a counter to those who feel the 14 will imbalance the game in some way.  The 14 will not, currently the 51D with its ords and high top speed is more then enough for the runners, add to that the LA and D9s and really what you have is a situation not where top speed is the absolute but that you are within an earshot of that top speed and have the alt to get the head start.  If top speed and climb performance were the only factors, then all the 51 pilots would be in LAs - but they are not.

The 14, down low under 10k, usually under 5k, is not better then the spit 16, it turns worse and has a nasty stall.  The people who can use a spit 14 to dominate can already do that in an LA or a 51 or a dora today - nothing much changes.  Perked its rarely used, unperked it will have a few tours of popularity and those who like spits will probably go back to the 8 or 16 because they are much more docile and usable.

I feel that this is the same kind of argument people had when the 152 was unperked - and I think most people look at the 152 and and think "its not a dora, it's mine!"

So do we really need a G10 - no, not really.  But will the spit 14 become the new 51?  no, it can't turn, its got a nasty stall, and it could be argued that the 16 is a better sub-10k fighter, which is where most of the fights are anyway.
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SouthLanda
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« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2012, 03:15:09 PM »

The AH Spitfire 14 has near equal performance in normal main arena hights as the Spit 16 and Spit 8 below 300 MPH. Its hard to keep up with either aircraft, when attempting to stay in close formation.

The only advantage is over 300MPH, where it continues to a higher top speed and can outrun any other spit.

The WEP climb rate is a few hundred feed per minute faster than the other Spitfires at MA altitudes at military power.

Also, the Griffin engine has a 'dead' band of poor supercharging boost between 19k and 23k, meaning you must WEP climb through that band or risk being out run/accelerated.


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