Bombers F3 mode Why should they have it?

[Randy1]

I don't use F3 mode in bombers myself.  Why is it even an option?  If i come up on the bottom side of a fighter I have an advantage.  Why shouldn't I have the same advantage in a fighter coming up on the bottom of say a B26.  The B26 boys do some severe turns to avoid a bottom attack.  Seems wrong to me especially when their drones hang on.

I could see a compromise.  Uncheck formation and you get F3 view mode.  Check formation and no F3 since you have three planes worth of guns.  This is not a wish but a discussion point.

 

[FLS]

The reason for F3 is the enhanced SA you'd get with a full bomber crew.

[colmbo]

The reason for F3 is the enhanced SA you'd get with a full bomber crew.

That would be further enhanced in a formation….3 times the eyes.

[SmokinLoon]

I think it represents, correctly, the notion that there are crewmen looking in all directions at all times.  Obviously, this is more the case with the B17 than so a Boston, bt the concpt is still legit IMO.

However, I would like to see some sort of revision that the views be based on each individual plane and not the class of plane.  For instance, why does the Boston and A20 get the F3 mode when the IL-2, 110, and 410 do not?  The pilot and crewmember are in the SAME positions.  Oh, I fully understand not allowing the IL-2 to have the F3 mode, I fully support that. The armor alone restricts the view, but that plane, or that class (1 pilot, 1 dorsal rear facing crewman), is entirely different monster than the heavy bomber with multiple crewman looking in multiple directions.

Hopefully, HTC can figure out how to limit the F3 views a bit more.  Again, this "all or none" categorizing is a bit much, imo.

[Randy1]

If the bombers had standard gun numbers assigned to each gun then the need for F3 would be eliminated.  That is as an example the nose gun on all bombers with nose guns would always be 1.  Top gun 2 and so on. Then the hat switch could be set up to give you all views just like a fighter hat switch.

I almost always use the B17 so the guns match my hat switch setting but another bomber I would have to change switch settings.

That would give the bombers a shooting advantage and give the fighters a break by not having to contend with an F3 fight.

This is not a huge deal.  More of a fine tuning.

[FLS]

The player in the bomber still has the disadvantage of only looking one way at a time. Crew lookout was full time in all directions.

Numbering the guns has to take into account the fact that different bombers did not have the same gun stations.

[Randy1]

The player in the bomber still has the disadvantage of only looking one way at a time. Crew lookout was full time in all directions.

With a hat switch I can roll through the gun positions pretty quick.  You also assume all those eyes were perfectly coordinated.

Numbering the guns has to take into account the fact that different bombers did not have the same gun stations.

A standard numbering system does just that.  A rear gun is still a rear gun.  A top gun is still a top gun.  Although there are top-rear facing guns, once defined, you can use your bomber hat switch effectively on each bomber and do away with bomber arcade mode.

[Karnak]

A standard numbering system does just that.  A rear gun is still a rear gun.  A top gun is still a top gun.  Although there are top-rear facing guns, once defined, you can use your bomber hat switch effectively on each bomber and do away with bomber arcade mode.

Ok, post your standard numbering system covering the following bombers and fighters:

A-20G
B-17G
B-24J
B-25C
B-25H
B-26B
B-29A
B5N2
Bf110C-4b
Bf110G-2
Boston Mk III
D3A1
G4M1
He111H
Il-2
Ju87D
Ju87G
Ju88A-4
Ki-67
Lancaster Mk III
Me410
SBD-5
TBM-3
Tu-2

You should strive for standardization and for keeping the numbers on a given aircraft as gap free as possible.

Good:
TBM-3: 2: dorsal gunner, 3: belly gunner

Bad:
TBM-3: 2: dorsal gunner, 5: belly gunner


Have at.

[BnZs]

The reason for F3 is the enhanced SA you'd get with a full bomber crew.

The major problem with this argument is that bomber vics in AH aren't being operated by a full crew, in fact they are rarely being operated by more than a single player.

[The Fugitive]

I don't use F3 mode in bombers myself.  Why is it even an option?  If i come up on the bottom side of a fighter I have an advantage.  Why shouldn't I have the same advantage in a fighter coming up on the bottom of say a B26.  The B26 boys do some severe turns to avoid a bottom attack.  Seems wrong to me especially when their drones hang on.

I could see a compromise.  Uncheck formation and you get F3 view mode.  Check formation and no F3 since you have three planes worth of guns.  This is not a wish but a discussion point.

 

To me it sounds like the title of this thread should have been "How can you kill buffs while they use F3 mode to follow you?" 

As stated the F3 mode is meant to mimic all the gunners looking out and around the buff at all times. With F3 mode your view is the combined information all of your gunners are feeding in. In the old days we had "death stars" which were buffs with all the gun positions manned by players. Flying into a fight...even a furball  was more like you see in the old movies with the chatter on the radio or what was were and heading which way so each gunner knew where to pick up the next bogie coming into their area of fire.

With F3 mode you don't have all that chatter as the info is available to you as you scan. Jumping from gun to gun isn't going to give you the same detail of information.

Your score sheet shows,over the last 2 years or so your K/D against buffs is under .35. I cant say how many times you have run up against buffs and limped away to survive to land but to me thats a fail too as the buff didn't go down. Many other players have better than a 1 K/D. So to me it looks more along the line that your not attacking buffs well. Im no super stud when it comes to killing buffs but Im much closer to a 1 K/D and that is with the same F3 mode pointing at me.

If you find yourself looking at ANY part of the rear view of a buff when your making a run your doing it wrong and most likely will lose. Think back to those times your in your B17, even with F3 mode it is hard to track, aim, and hit a target moving fast coming from anywhere in front of the 3-9 line of your buff. From behind, closing rates are much slower and they don't seem to move around much and so are much easier to hit. Remember that when you are fighting them in fighters.

I think the F3 mode is a good compromise. I know when Im flying a buff Im never going to get 4 or 5 guys to gun for me.... even if we could, so F3 helps there. As a fighter I know while they can see me all that much better they still have to hit me and if I use the things that I hate seeing fighters use against me in buff, against the buffs I know I stand that much better a chance against them and that they can be beat fairly easily even being able to see all around with F3 mode. 

[terrydew]

You should strive for standardization and for keeping the numbers on a given aircraft as gap free as possible.

Good:
TBM-3: 2: dorsal gunner, 3: belly gunner

Bad:
TBM-3: 2: dorsal gunner, 5: belly gunner


Have at.

Why? It makes no difference if positions are numbered in sequence! What is important is consistency ie the nose position is always 1 and if an aircraft doesn't have a nose gun then 1 does nothing. If you use any kind of programable controls this is very important. If you use only keyboard, it is still better because you only have to remember one set of keys.

[Randy1]

Why? It makes no difference if positions are numbered in sequence! What is important is consistency ie the nose position is always 1 and if an aircraft doesn't have a nose gun then 1 does nothing. If you use any kind of programable controls this is very important. If you use only keyboard, it is still better because you only have to remember one set of keys.

Exactly. 

If the top gun on a B17 is 2 then it is a 2 on an A20.  A B25 would have a 1 assigned for the nose gun but on the H it would have no function. Is the gun on the tail or on the top? Tail guns always have say a key 3 and top guns even if they only shot backwards are still a 2.

The point is no more arcade mode even for the C47.

Another compromise would be to only be able to view using F3 but no firing of flight controls.

If nothing else then a standard numbering system for those of us who do not want to use arcade mode.

[FLS]

The major problem with this argument is that bomber vics in AH aren't being operated by a full crew, in fact they are rarely being operated by more than a single player.

That's not the problem it's the supporting premise.

[Karnak]

Why? It makes no difference if positions are numbered in sequence! What is important is consistency ie the nose position is always 1 and if an aircraft doesn't have a nose gun then 1 does nothing. If you use any kind of programable controls this is very important. If you use only keyboard, it is still better because you only have to remember one set of keys.

Consistency is impossible so your best bet is to make the most common gun position 2, second most common 3 and so on.  Large gaps between positions are ergonomically bad.

[tmetal]

How would you handle numbering the ju88 with its two side by side top guns or the tu2 and its two tandem top guns?  No matter the solution there will always be players who will gripe about it and offer their own solution for this particular thing. Personally, I think it would be better to let the player assign their own button scheme for gun positions.