Author Topic: American Sniper  (Read 10446 times)

Offline oldskool65

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2015, 09:54:08 AM »
 :neener:  Yea get it right it's me that thinks, nay knows The British are best at everything warlike
 Leave swoop out of it
Of course I'm right I'm British

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #106 on: February 04, 2015, 09:59:18 AM »
Don't you dare bring me into this argument, if you re-read the thread you'll find all I've said in the whole thing is a one line note to widewing to point out the article he's disparaging does indeed state the military unit of the unnamed sniper.   At no time have I said a damn thing about about us Brits being better.  The whole argument of kills is pointless anyway since, as any military trained shooter will tell you, you don't count kills, you don't enjoy the job, you just do the job.  


I think it's both naive and unfair to expect a soldier not to enjoy his job.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline WWhiskey

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3122
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #107 on: February 04, 2015, 10:13:54 AM »
Pr3d4tor hits the nail on the head,,
A soldier with a gift gets to use his gift to serve his fellow soldiers,, win win! 
Unless your the bad guy, then Not so much!
 
Flying since tour 71.

Offline Swoop

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9180
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #108 on: February 04, 2015, 10:40:13 AM »
Bollocks.

Anyone who's ever had a man in his sights will tell you, its not about the kills, its about the lives you save.  And if you've never had a man in your sights you don't get an opinion.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #109 on: February 04, 2015, 11:09:09 AM »
Been there done that. So has a lot of people on this bbs. The killing isn't the enjoyable part for most guys, but even if it was I think it would be naive, unfair and downright hypocritical to expect that they shouldn't enjoy it as long as your freedom and way of life is dependent on them doing "the job". What a terrible thing to say that a man shouldn't enjoy the work that's required of him.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 11:11:53 AM by PR3D4TOR »
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9434
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #110 on: February 04, 2015, 01:49:07 PM »
If I understand your comment/question correctly, the US federal gift tax annual exclusion applies to gifts to (usually) family members (usually) as part of an estate planning/financial planning process.
*   *   *
(BTW: I did think that the amount two gifts of $13,000 was a bit odd and I thought well maybe she is donating it to her own family members and is applying the annual  exclusion rule.  Well I looked it up and in 2014 it was $14,000.  So it does not fit, and besides I am sure that the families who got  her gifts would want to publicly thank her.  But still, two gifts of $13,000 is odd). 


The annual exclusion applies to any individual to whom a gift is made, not just to family members.  During 2009-2012 the exclusion was $13,000 per donee.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Frequently-Asked-Questions-on-Gift-Taxes

Seems to me that what the woman said was exactly correct at the time she said it.

- oldman

Offline -aper-

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 369
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #111 on: February 04, 2015, 04:15:46 PM »
I think it's both naive and unfair to expect a soldier not to enjoy his job.

Some soldiers will always volunteer to join firing squad while other will never enjoy it.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #112 on: February 04, 2015, 04:28:41 PM »
The killing is just a small part of combat, and combat is just a small part of what soldiering is as an occupation. Similarly, killing is only a small part of hunting game. Combat is a lot of things, but "exciting" is definitively a part of it. Or as Winston Churchill put it: "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline SysError

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1009
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #113 on: February 04, 2015, 08:49:29 PM »

The annual exclusion applies to any individual to whom a gift is made, not just to family members.  During 2009-2012 the exclusion was $13,000 per donee.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Frequently-Asked-Questions-on-Gift-Taxes

Seems to me that what the woman said was exactly correct at the time she said it.

- oldman

I do not think that I (we?) disagree on your first point.  I used the word usually, granted in parenthesis, maybe I should have left them off (I do not know).  It is just a little unusual to see large out right gifts to people unrelated to you.  When you hear of foundations giving large gifts it is usually to charities to build a recreation area for the community, or something large and worthy.  And I did not know that the gifts were made in 2013 and not 2014.

Gifts over the annual exclusion are subject to taxation.  I agree.  However, as I am sure you know, it is the donor (most of the time, unless the donee agrees to assume it) that pays the tax at their effective federal tax rate.  So as a 501c3 with a federal tax rate of zero (and yes, there are some circumstances were the rate is not quite zero) any donation amount over the annual exclusion limit would be subject to tax, again at the organization's effective tax rate.  

And I'll admit that I may be wrong (but I do not think so) about what tax rate one actually might get taxed at.  As I remember it (having dealt with the issue), it is the donor's effective tax rate.

And here on reflection, I will go along with a larger point that I think you might legitimately make, who the hell wants to risk it.  IRS agents are probably not too used to dealing with the issue on this scale and an organization might find itself having to hiring a bunch of very specialized tax lawyers and a CPA or two.

OK perhaps someone said $13K is a safe number.


But let me ask you;
Do you know why she didn't make more than just two gifts of $13k?

Is there a limit on how much a foundation can donate?

Were there just two families that qualified under the foundation's donation criteria?

Someone said that the foundation's records were public, I'm not sure where to find them.  (Did I remember that correctly?  Who said the records were public?  can you post a link or provide some advice?  Thanks!)


Most (many?) of the comments in this thread/post have been full of admiration for Chris Kyle.  I understand that.  I would agree with almost all of the measured but enthusiastic statements of admiration expressed here.  But there is also some Hero Worship going on here that is at the expense others and, from time to time, the facts.  I know that people are not going to agree, and I do not have a problem with myth hero creation (I really don't, the ancient Greeks proved how important Heroes and Myths are to society), but most of the guys here know how to sale soap, they do not have a clue on how to create a myth.  

What is happening is that we are becoming polarized over what we all should and do agree on. Vets that need help deserve to be fully helped.  

For me, and I would hope (perhaps foolishly) for others, I see enough odd things about the foundation for me to not to be curios and ask questions.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 09:11:22 PM by SysError »
=======================
SysError

Dante's Crew

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Offline USRanger

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10325
      • BoP Home
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #114 on: February 04, 2015, 09:01:08 PM »
   Your first kill changes you forever.  There is no taking it back.  You are a different person now.  My first few kills scared the watermelon outta me.  After that, I derived neither pleasure, nor pain from killing.  I stayed neutral (numb?).  It's how you keep your sanity when you are in units that see much more intense combat than the average unit.  The last couple years I've had some pretty serious mental health issues that came outta nowhere, but hit me like a ton of bricks and won for quite a long period of time.  I have to take a med 3 time every day, or I "wig out" really bad with anxiety attacks from hell.  It's weird, I had no problem for years except for a much shorter temper, then *bam*, something that you only see on TV and never think will happen to you does.
   Killing is not fun.  I have more "kills" than I'd like to discuss tonight (catch me on a good night), some of them hand-to-hand, him-or-me, and I can tell you not one kill was ever fun for me, although I regret none and would do every single one all over again.  I refuse to hunt animals though.  I've never been once in my life, and never plan to.  Funny, huh...


 :salute
Axis vs Allies Staff Member
☩ JG11 Sonderstaffel ☩
Flying 'Black[Death] 10' ☩JG11☩

Only the Proud, Only the Strong Ne Desit Virtus

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9434
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2015, 09:29:36 PM »
  Your first kill changes you forever.  There is no taking it back.  You are a different person now.  My first few kills scared the watermelon outta me.  After that, I derived neither pleasure, nor pain from killing.  I stayed neutral (numb?).  It's how you keep your sanity when you are in units that see much more intense combat than the average unit.  The last couple years I've had some pretty serious mental health issues that came outta nowhere, but hit me like a ton of bricks and won for quite a long period of time.  I have to take a med 3 time every day, or I "wig out" really bad with anxiety attacks from hell.  It's weird, I had no problem for years except for a much shorter temper, then *bam*, something that you only see on TV and never think will happen to you does.
   Killing is not fun.  I have more "kills" than I'd like to discuss tonight (catch me on a good night), some of them hand-to-hand, him-or-me, and I can tell you not one kill was ever fun for me, although I regret none and would do every single one all over again.  I refuse to hunt animals though.  I've never been once in my life, and never plan to.  Funny, huh...


Well, Ranger, I guess we'll stop talking about taxes now.  Thanks so very much for what you've done on our behalf, and please accept our shared grief for the effect it's had on you and your family.  I'm sure that only a very few people here can really understand your experience, and certainly I'm not one of them.  Be sure to post here, either generally, or to one or the other of us, when things get rough, if you think that might help.

- oldman

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #116 on: February 05, 2015, 02:07:15 AM »
  Your first kill changes you forever.  There is no taking it back.  You are a different person now.  My first few kills scared the watermelon outta me.  After that, I derived neither pleasure, nor pain from killing.  I stayed neutral (numb?).  It's how you keep your sanity when you are in units that see much more intense combat than the average unit.  The last couple years I've had some pretty serious mental health issues that came outta nowhere, but hit me like a ton of bricks and won for quite a long period of time.  I have to take a med 3 time every day, or I "wig out" really bad with anxiety attacks from hell.  It's weird, I had no problem for years except for a much shorter temper, then *bam*, something that you only see on TV and never think will happen to you does.
   Killing is not fun.  I have more "kills" than I'd like to discuss tonight (catch me on a good night), some of them hand-to-hand, him-or-me, and I can tell you not one kill was ever fun for me, although I regret none and would do every single one all over again.  I refuse to hunt animals though.  I've never been once in my life, and never plan to.  Funny, huh...


 :salute

 :salute

I've been an avid hunter since I was a kid. I guess it has conditioned me to killing living creatures with relative ease. Shooting people wasn't all that different. I've felt more pity for some of the animals I've killed than some of the scumbags I fought. Them shooting back at me was the terrifying part and has made me wary of crowds and sudden noises, even more than 20 years after the fact. That said I've never killed anyone up close and personal. Mostly from behind a .50 cal.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15570
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #117 on: February 05, 2015, 02:44:56 AM »
<S> to USRanger and other vets.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #118 on: February 05, 2015, 03:26:53 AM »
This really has been more entertaining than I originally thought it could be.  I'm not going correct your errors, ("Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" Napoleon), but I do have a few thoughts which, against my better judgment, I shall offer in a sprint of a revered friendship to a fellow Aces Higher.  (And for the record I do not consider you an “enemy”.  I decide to provide you with an accurate quote so as to not make you the victim of “lousy reporting”.  Let me suggest the word adversary or sparring partner.)
 

Errors? I have merely stated facts. I realize that facts can be inconvenient relative to one's rant, but truth is truth. Moreover, you haven't actually addressed a single point I made, except to rave on about Psychology and Tax shelters and diversions from the issues I listed.

(snipped arrogant Psychobabble self-justification and reading list of terminally unbearable)
 
Quote
I originally was just going to let your post go, but then I thought about the 501c3 stuff.  I have helped non-profits file 990 before, so I kind of know how to read them and I thought lets go read it.

You should have followed your first instinct. You sound like the guy who changed a few tires and now believes he's as qualified as a Goodyear Engineer.

(Snipped self-aggrandizing essay, because no one wants to read it twice)

Quote
The National Review, for those of you who do not know, is a conservative right wing magazine started by William Buckley. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Buckley%2C_Jr.  I, and others, believe that no other publication did more to define modern day conservatism in America than the National Review.  (While many disagreed with Buckley and his view points, no one that I know of ever accused Buckley of lying.  Not lying, now there is a conservative and liberal idea that we all should support and promote!)
Italicsare mine, as it provides a clue into your mindset.

I would say that I know of Bill Buckley, having done considerable volunteer work for his brother James while in high school and college (beginning in 1970)..... Brilliant man, kind and affable. So was Jim, although he wasn't nearly as cerebral as his brother.

(Snipped more commentary on tax shelters and similar blather)

Quote
I’ve often believed that if you want to understand America you can read the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Gaithersburg Address and all of the Constitutional Amendments, and you will not really get it until you dig into the US Tax Code, Regulations and Official Guidance.  http://www.irs.gov/Tax-Professionals/Tax-Code,-Regulations-and-Official-Guidance.

Your auto-correct is kicking your arse.... At least I'll give the benefit of the doubt.... Gaithersburg Address? I suppose it's safe to say, Gettysburg Address. have you even been on Watter's World?

Of course, this was Lincoln's expression, and it was not fully accepted at the time. It surely isn't given its due merit today. One could easily argue that many see things today as government of the government, by the government for the government. Lincoln's admonition is wasted on the current generation. An old friend of John Adams, writing in a personal letter to Adams just before his death, stated that, "If every second bureaucrat in Federal government were hanged on Sunday, the others would be farmers by Tuesday." It seems that even in its infancy, government was viewed as weak in morality and a danger to the American concept by some, thought to be well educated and wise.  

To understand America, one must first understand that America is a concept of liberty and self-governance. That concept is expressed in the various historic documents you name, but to truly grasp the concept, you must go much, much deeper. At the foundation of this country, not everyone agreed to what constituted the basic concept. I recommend seeing Dinesh D'Souza's film, America: Imagine the World Without Her. D'Souza provides a very competent explantion of the "concept" and its affect on the human race over the past 230 years. He also provides many examples of a national affliction I like to call "social Allodynia", or a condition where hot is sensed as cold, and cold as hot.

Quote
Of course there are a couple of other issues out there and open for debate. But the one fact that we now know is that Kyle is a liar.  A court of law says so.

Actually, a jury determined that. A judge or judges will determine if the jury was incorrect. Besides, we all understand that courts get it wrong. That's why we have an appeal process. in 1973, SCOTUS ruled that an unborn child is not a person. According to Gallup, 63% of Americans believe the court was wrong in total, or in part. Need I mention the Dred Scott decision?

Quote
I understand why this would brother some people immensely.  If he lied about a stupid bar fight, what else did he lie about?  Were all of his 200+ kills (162 confirmed), to use his words “damn savages”.   Were there innocents that he killed?  I do not know, but we have the word of a liar and … ah…well just the word of a liar.

Do you know (without Google's assistance) what ROEs are?

Rules of Engagement. Yeah, there are rules imposed. Many, even most, believe that politically motivated ROEs are simply bad. They can be when they create unwanted risk. War sucks, and to pick up on Robert E. Lee's point (in modern vernacular), it is good that it sucks, or we would like it too much. ROE's are often in place to protect the innocent. Defining the innocent is where it gets politicized. Of course, the value of ROEs is largely diluted when the "damn savages" have no such morals. When Kyle was in Iraq, the ROEs were in a constant state of change. However, an unjustified shooting could easily lead to finding oneself in prison. I doubt that he pulled trigger on innocents. See the film. Read the book.

There are several things that I'm beginning to believe. You haven't read Kyle's book, nor seen the film. You haven't been in the military, and certainly haven't experienced combat. Did I get those right? Why are those things significant?

You have an opinion, but I don't give many opinions weight. Why? Because, opinions are invariably conclusions drawn in the absence of knowledge.

I'm also an Engineer with nearly 40 years of experience. I prefer to deal in facts. Facts are often classified as data. Data is accumulated and analyzed. Conclusions are then drawn, supported by the facts and only the facts. The area of issue is often the assumption that all data is factual, and not tainted with opinion. Thus, one must be capable of isolating fact and opinion. I don't think you have done so. I don't know that you can. The evidence (IE: Facts) doesn't support that you can at this point.

Quote
On another issue, Americans across the country are reporting a significant occurrence of acts of intimidation and suggested acts of violence on their persons by patrons of the movie.  I hope that we can all agree that such behavior is despicable and should not be tolerated by anyone.

Now, this is an amazing statement. It's also a stunning strawman argument. You're saying that people who see the film somehow become violent thugs? LOLOLOLOL What does this suggest of those who watch the "Living Dead"? Go see the film. Stop by your library and borrow the book.

Your admonition about charities is surely valid. There are many lousy charities. I urge anyone who wishes to give (for vets, children, etc) to take the time to learn where the money really goes.
I recommend Charity Navigator as a place to begin.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/

For many years, my wife has been supporting Feed the Children (rated 4 out of 4). She's retired and has the time, and we are blessed with the resources. We now contribute to two children. We exchange letters and help the families provide for special occasions, like Christmas and birthdays as well as the monthly donation to provide healthy food, medical treatment and education. She recently added Wounded Warriors Project (rated just shy of 4 out of 4) to the monthly list.  Since 2003, my wife has been sending care packages to soldiers and Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Several of these men (with their families) have become almost like part of our family. Indeed, some have visited us at our home. Giving back is the best way forward, for us as individuals and as a nation. "For, to whom much is given, much is expected".
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15570
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: American Sniper
« Reply #119 on: February 05, 2015, 03:38:46 AM »
 I recommend seeing Dinesh D'Souza's film, America: Imagine the World Without Her. D'Souza provides a very competent explantion of the "concept" and its affect on the human race over the past 230 years.

 :aok