Author Topic: Ethics of HO Shooting.....  (Read 14013 times)

Offline Bear

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2014, 08:51:45 AM »
 Shoot them down head on --rear end -- straight down --upside down. anyway you want. Ethics B.S. Crap.    Bear

Offline Wiley

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2014, 10:51:09 AM »
A good point. 

Of all the online "combat flight simulations" I've flown, AH is the only one where a sizable percentage of the player population attempt to dissuade and/or demean those who attempt to use actual combat tactics:  Front quarter shots, acquiring altitude before engaging, extending or disengaging from a fight when the situation calls for it, etc.

This was touched on earlier, but I think this attitude is because some see AH as a sport / game, while others are more into the simulation aspects of AH.  Both player types are competitive, but the approach they take reflects these philosophical differences.

I don't get it either.  "I'm in it for the fight!" ...as long as the enemy's not doing everything they can to try to beat me.

Extending constantly and setting up residence in the protective dome of ack can get old in an opponent, but that's part of the game.  Constant running at the first loss of advantage gets old, but living in your ack is usually in response to a group hovering over your field waiting to kill you before you can get to alt/speed.  Run him down or pick him out of the ack.  That's also part of the game.

I don't HO a lot because I am generally trying to stay away from the sharp end of the enemy plane, and putting myself in his guns is stupid.  That's the only rational justification for it.

Wiley.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2014, 10:53:26 AM »
Im confused by the whole ho shooting topic. It seems to be a big ethical no no. I am a newbi so forgive me. Iv received a couple of messages from other players claiming I hoed them. What qualifies as ho shooting except a direct head on assault?  I dove down on one player and shot him from behind and he accused me of hoing him. Also, if you're in a slower plane like a zero or nik2-j, how can you defend against high speed bnz,ers without facing them head on?

The short and the long - shoot first, sort it out later.  If I feel a 1v1 is setting up, I try to avoid a HO and initiate the fight squarely, but at some point usually one of us throw that courtesy out the window.  In hordes, I try to avoid being a victim to them, while using it to thin out some of the red not on my tail.

Don't let it influence your decision making ingame for a kill or not - those that do are the ones PMing you.  It takes two to truly HO, and it's not hard to avoid the receiving end.
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Offline bustr

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2014, 12:31:52 PM »
We may not like it but, the HO is the great equalizer. If you succeed, it puts an end to the skill and ACM advantage some players have earned over time or are naturals at in the game.

That being said, if it becomes the tactic de jur for the MA. Your average night will be, up, fly to the fight, either you out HO everyone there, or for most. Their night is one long repeat of a boring flight to be towered in seconds of arrival. Which will influence many to fly very timid around others and avoid fighting, choosing to only pick, vulch, and run from anyone looking to fight. Kind of like we are now.

The alternative to this which we were closer to about 7-8 years ago. Community peer pressure expressed the feeling that HOing was a bad tactic and players who HOed were bad game citizens, green newbies, or somehow cheating everyone else's opportunity to participate in air combat.

Several in this post are trying to fine tune the definition of what is a HO in AH. The AH definition has always been both aircraft are flying face on at each other blazing away. So everything else in the frontal quarter angle 360 cone is argued over and spitefully defended as skill on ch200, PM's, and here in the forums.

Once you learn how the front quarter cone works in the game, it's an easy kill requiring no ACM because everyone merges at each other mostly in straight lines. If you turn off your tracers, it's stealing candy from a baby because you give no warning for your target to key off or in some cases even know it was you who shot them. Most newbies and many vets shoot long and always miss as a rule. In many cases what has become irritating is the few players who have learned how to shoot during that approach and not shoot long. And they do have their tracers off. It's insulting as heck if you listen to range or watch 200. It's a fast way to have one heck of a K\D and Hit% without needing to invest time in the DA.

Here for newbies and vets is how to teach yourself the shot. You can extrapolate from these instructions for all the other positions attacking from the frontal quarter 360 cone. The root of everyone's mistake. You are not leading short enough in front of the con for the combined speeds of your fighter and the con's. Most often 600-800mph in the MA.

Offline use the AH default.bmp gunsight. It's a 100Mil ring. Use a D9, P51D, La7, or Spit16 to start with. The drone circle has the drones at 3000ft. Climb to 5000ft and fly against the left hand turn of the drones. You do want tracers on as training wheels for getting your stream into the right place. If you turn on the lead computing gunsight the green cross will show you what I'm about to describe.

When the drone is between 2k and 2.5k away dive to it. When the drone is between 1000 and 1500 place the upper edge of the 100Mil ring on the drone so you are shooting down and in front of the drone. This is where you watch your tracer stream and correct it into the drone's path. If you have the lead computing gunsight enabled, you will see that the shoot point for 1000-1500 places the top edge of the 100Mil ring just in front or on the nose of the on coming drone.

The drones in the circle are traveling at about 225-250mph with you diving at about 375-425. In the MA you and your con will be much faster closing. So your aimpoint to lead in the MA will be closer to the top of your windscreen at 1000-1500yds. This is why newbies and many vets miss most of the time with their front quarter shots to an oncoming con. And yes it is a skill that takes some practice. Still it's easier than learning ACM if all you want to do is dive in, shoot, then run, until you can turn around and repeat.
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Offline Someguy63

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2014, 12:58:14 PM »
HO's happen even in 1 v 1's with equal advantages and also in the same plane.

Weak move.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2014, 01:07:43 PM »
I have read many historical accounts of HOing in WWII. In fact, it was a USAAF fighter tactic to keep German interceptors from HOing USAAF bombers. That is how Chuck Yeager got shot down over southern France. In a HO fight...

From the man's mouth to ink...
http://victoriayeager.com/from-chuck-yeager-1944-shot-down-france/

Almost half of Bong's kills were a result of him using head on passes against the Japanese.

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Offline Wiley

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2014, 01:13:28 PM »

Once you learn how the front quarter cone works in the game, it's an easy kill requiring no ACM because everyone merges at each other mostly in straight lines. If you turn off your tracers, it's stealing candy from a baby because you give no warning for your target to key off or in some cases even know it was you who shot them. Most newbies and many vets shoot long and always miss as a rule. In many cases what has become irritating is the few players who have learned how to shoot during that approach and not shoot long. And they do have their tracers off. It's insulting as heck if you listen to range or watch 200. It's a fast way to have one heck of a K\D and Hit% without needing to invest time in the DA.


I'm not quite certain, but I believe I see a solution to the problem.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline Zerstorer

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2014, 01:24:27 PM »
I'm not quite certain, but I believe I see a solution to the problem.

Wiley.

 :lol

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Offline Slate

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2014, 01:26:47 PM »
   Salt we had kills on each other the other night. <S> However you got the kill on me after your 3-4 friends jumped in and my engine was out. I killed you by avoiding you as you blazed away and quickly turned the tables forcing you back to the tower. The spit is very maneuverable and I don't understand why most Spits I encounter are intent on firing in your face.
    :headscratch:
   as others have said it's hard to get a string of victories when you allow the enemy a gun solution.



   In other News: thanks rooks for leaving me hanging with no support defending against a GV and CV assault.  :furious  :bhead
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Offline rvflyer

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2014, 01:34:11 PM »
I haven't had a HO since my army days.  And it would be unethical to shoot one :x  :bolt:
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2014, 01:59:31 PM »
I'm not quite certain, but I believe I see a solution to the problem.

+1

Those who think the HO equalizes a fight don't understand the most basic fundamentals of ACM. Ironic, actually.
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Offline darkzking

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2014, 03:27:43 PM »
just dont be that guy who HOs the single bad guy in a 2v1 or more engagement
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2014, 03:29:02 PM »
just dont be that guy who HOs the single bad guy in a 2v1 or more engagement

Yeah.  You're giving him too much of a chance to shoot you down.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

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Offline wpeters

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2014, 04:35:45 PM »
We may not like it but, the HO is the great equalizer. If you succeed, it puts an end to the skill and ACM advantage some players have earned over time or are naturals at in the game.

That being said, if it becomes the tactic de jur for the MA. Your average night will be, up, fly to the fight, either you out HO everyone there, or for most. Their night is one long repeat of a boring flight to be towered in seconds of arrival. Which will influence many to fly very timid around others and avoid fighting, choosing to only pick, vulch, and run from anyone looking to fight. Kind of like we are now.

The alternative to this which we were closer to about 7-8 years ago. Community peer pressure expressed the feeling that HOing was a bad tactic and players who HOed were bad game citizens, green newbies, or somehow cheating everyone else's opportunity to participate in air combat.

Several in this post are trying to fine tune the definition of what is a HO in AH. The AH definition has always been both aircraft are flying face on at each other blazing away. So everything else in the frontal quarter angle 360 cone is argued over and spitefully defended as skill on ch200, PM's, and here in the forums.

Once you learn how the front quarter cone works in the game, it's an easy kill requiring no ACM because everyone merges at each other mostly in straight lines. If you turn off your tracers, it's stealing candy from a baby because you give no warning for your target to key off or in some cases even know it was you who shot them. Most newbies and many vets shoot long and always miss as a rule. In many cases what has become irritating is the few players who have learned how to shoot during that approach and not shoot long. And they do have their tracers off. It's insulting as heck if you listen to range or watch 200. It's a fast way to have one heck of a K\D and Hit% without needing to invest time in the DA.

Here for newbies and vets is how to teach yourself the shot. You can extrapolate from these instructions for all the other positions attacking from the frontal quarter 360 cone. The root of everyone's mistake. You are not leading short enough in front of the con for the combined speeds of your fighter and the con's. Most often 600-800mph in the MA.

Offline use the AH default.bmp gunsight. It's a 100Mil ring. Use a D9, P51D, La7, or Spit16 to start with. The drone circle has the drones at 3000ft. Climb to 5000ft and fly against the left hand turn of the drones. You do want tracers on as training wheels for getting your stream into the right place. If you turn on the lead computing gunsight the green cross will show you what I'm about to describe.

When the drone is between 2k and 2.5k away dive to it. When the drone is between 1000 and 1500 place the upper edge of the 100Mil ring on the drone so you are shooting down and in front of the drone. This is where you watch your tracer stream and correct it into the drone's path. If you have the lead computing gunsight enabled, you will see that the shoot point for 1000-1500 places the top edge of the 100Mil ring just in front or on the nose of the on coming drone.

The drones in the circle are traveling at about 225-250mph with you diving at about 375-425. In the MA you and your con will be much faster closing. So your aimpoint to lead in the MA will be closer to the top of your windscreen at 1000-1500yds. This is why newbies and many vets miss most of the time with their front quarter shots to an oncoming con. And yes it is a skill that takes some practice. Still it's easier than learning ACM if all you want to do is dive in, shoot, then run, until you can turn around and repeat.
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Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Ethics of HO Shooting.....
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2014, 04:54:47 PM »
First, welcome to Aces High.

Im confused by the whole ho shooting topic. It seems to be a big ethical no no.

Ethics, smethics.

If it is in the game, it is in the game.

HO'ing happens.


Iv received a couple of messages from other players claiming I hoed them.

Use the dot command: .squelch GameID


What qualifies as ho shooting except a direct head on assault?  I dove down on one player and shot him from behind and he accused me of hoing him. Also, if you're in a slower plane like a zero or nik2-j, how can you defend against high speed bnz,ers without facing them head on?

As stated earlier, it is Head On. Opinions vary, but a good definition is within a few degrees reciprocal headings, nose to nose.

The practical downside to HO shots is that, while your guns are on him, his guns are on you. Quite often ends with two damaged planes.


Have fun playing the way you want to play. I hope you stick around for a while. :salute



GameID: RufLeak
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