Author Topic: Don't move controls too rapidly  (Read 3028 times)

Offline Randy1

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Don't move controls too rapidly
« on: March 29, 2015, 01:00:04 PM »
  Don't move controls too rapidly error is back in my game again after a year's hiatus.  It is happening once to twice per session.   Lost several planes in close to the ground fights. 
Looking at the raw input in the "Advanced" controls on the clipboard I see a tiny jitter in the rudder on the CH pedals.  Could that be it?

I have hand trembles.  Could that be it?

Dog gone if i can figure out why AH has this feature.  It sure hasn't stopped the porposeing planes or plane jiggles.

Offline Bizman

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2015, 01:23:49 PM »
Both reasons could be it. If the raw input isn't steady, there's some spiking in the pots unless you live in a place where minor earthquakes (or heavy traffic) makes your house shake constantly. Cleaning them might help. If the symptoms still occur after cleaning and calibrating (both in Windows and in game), add some dead band. The less the better because it will add a zone of no action in the middle and it'd be a nuisance both to learn having it and again learning out of it after fixing or replacing the controller.

The reason for the entire "don't move your controls too rapidly" is to add immersion by preventing players from using impossible stick moves. In flight the flying surfaces tend to keep flat so you'd need some muscles to actually move the controllers to move the rudder or flaps. Remember, the warbirds didn't have hydraulics to assist the pilot. As an example no human can pull back the stick of a compressing 109. Since very few are using Force Feedback sticks the "don't move" system has to suffice and IMO it does its job quite well.
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

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Offline Randy1

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2015, 01:49:31 PM »
Thanks Bizman for the reply.  My guess is a dirty pot on the rudder.  I do use the rudders quite a bit.

On rudder I have not used scaling so I added that to see if that skirts the problem.  I will post results latter.  If that fails then I will pull the pedals apart and clean.

It would seem like they would use the modeling technique they use on the P-38J ailerons instead of the error message.

Offline ink

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2015, 02:17:32 PM »
it could be you are just trying harder for that kill.....or to avoid getting killed....I got that message a couple times when I first got back.....

I highly doubt it is small spiking in the stick or rudder peddles that cause it(I could be wrong just highly doubt it)

Offline FLS

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2015, 02:27:24 PM »
If it only happens when fighting it's likely pilot error.

Try getting the message on purpose for each axis, pitch, roll, and yaw, to see just what it takes to trigger the lock.

Offline Bizman

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 02:43:54 PM »
I would start with the cleaning because dead band and damping only hide the problem instead of removing the cause.  Even worse, the dirt inside the pots works as an abrasive, causing them wear out prematurely. CH pedals aren't too difficult to service, just take care that you get the thin wires in their slots so that they won't twist or get too tight.

Scaling is somewhat related to both dead band and damping, but it won't fix the raw input jitter. Dead band is made for that, but it should be used only after everything else has been tried, mostly with poor quality or worn out controllers. Damping is like using rubber bands instead of steel wires and syrup instead of gear oil. Both are decreasing accuracy. Scaling on the other hand doesn't affect raw input accuracy at all, it determines the relation between your controller input and the flying surfaces. Some like it linear, some exponential. Some people like the latter set in a curve to let them use large hand/foot movements in the center area for better accuracy. Others may like the idea that a certain amount of movement correlates with the actual movement of the rudder or ailerons.

So, you may want to test whether some dead band would kill the raw input jitter, and if it does, clean the pots and test again without dead band to see if that did the trick.

Ink is probably correct in suggesting that small spiking hardly would cause the message. And FLS has a good suggestion for pinpointing the actual controller you're having most problems with. Hand trembles can get worse in the heat of a fight without you even noticing it. There's techniques and exercises for that, similar to those taught to birth-giving mothers for example. Breath, brother, breath...  :evil:
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2015, 03:07:52 PM »
Thanks Bizman for the reply.  My guess is a dirty pot on the rudder.  I do use the rudders quite a bit.

On rudder I have not used scaling so I added that to see if that skirts the problem.  I will post results latter.  If that fails then I will pull the pedals apart and clean.

It would seem like they would use the modeling technique they use on the P-38J ailerons instead of the error message.

Don't adjust the scaling unless your looking to adjust how fast an input is applied to the control. Adjust the dead band to clean up a signal on a controller. Just bump it up a bit, half the "slider handle" and see if the signal settles down. The raw will bounce, but the other should stay steady.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2015, 05:41:23 PM »
CH pedals aren't too difficult to service, just take care that you get the thin wires in their slots so that they won't twist or get too tight.


...er...are there instructions, somewhere, on how to do this...?

- oldman

Offline Randy1

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2015, 09:19:45 PM »
Thanks to everyone for their replies.  I always get good advice.

I tried damping and could not dampen out the jitter.

I feel sure now it is the rudder pot.  I was slipping the P-38n in for  landing and the rudder hung to the right for a second or so.

I have never happen on defensive avoidance maneuvers.  It most often happens in near stall pursuit when I kick the rudder in with full stick to pull the nose around.

Offline Bizman

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 02:22:52 AM »
@Oldman: Remove the screws in the bottom. There may be a couple hidden under rubber pads, so check those if the bottom doesn't come loose. I've only done that once, years ago on a friend's equipment so I can't check. But I did it without any instructions and I'm not an engineer. Just take care of some precautions like a steady working surface, good lighting and your favourite relaxant. Take your time while taking it apart, a camera might be handy in documenting how things looked like before digging deeper. There's small clamps conducting the wires, make note where they are and ensure the cables don't get tight when pushing the pedals to their extents.

@Randy: While looking for instructions regarding Oldman's question I stumbled upon a thread where the poster had found out that the the mechanic parts of the pedals can get sticky. While cleaning your pots take a look at the plastic parts, too. Clean them and add some plastic friendly lubricant.

The reason I opened my friend's pedals was because the plastic sliding parts had become sticky from spilled beverage. Sugar is great for gluing!
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 07:15:53 AM »
@Oldman: Remove the screws in the bottom.


Thanks, Bizman!

- oldman

Offline Bizman

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 10:13:10 AM »

Thanks, Bizman!

- oldman
Always a pleasure to say the obvious  :D

Wasn't trying to underestimate your technical skills, I'm just trying to be as exact as possible to avoid misunderstandings due to English not being my native tongue.
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline Scca

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 11:25:57 AM »

...er...are there instructions, somewhere, on how to do this...?

- oldman
The googles is ma fri-end http://www.svaf.net/index.php/forum/5-tech-talk/9479-assembly-of-the-ch-pedals-pictures

Also you can register on http://www.ch-hangar.com forum, I just downloaded a step by step guide with pics even.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 11:35:20 AM by Scca »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2015, 11:59:40 AM »
The googles is ma fri-end http://www.svaf.net/index.php/forum/5-tech-talk/9479-assembly-of-the-ch-pedals-pictures

Also you can register on http://www.ch-hangar.com forum, I just downloaded a step by step guide with pics even.


More good information, thanks!

- oldman

Offline Scca

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Re: Don't move controls too rapidly
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2015, 12:04:47 PM »

More good information, thanks!

- oldman
Welcome.

I downloaded the guide, it looks very easy. The trick apparently is taking the pedals (brakes) apart first, then the base.
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