Author Topic: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores  (Read 528 times)

Offline Bino

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June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« on: June 25, 2015, 10:25:36 AM »

Here are the final scores for Battle of the Coral Sea:



Frame 1 - Allied Minor Victory
Frame 2 - Allied Strategic Victory
Frame 3 - Allied Major Victory

It seems that I still have some ways to go before I finally design a PTO scenario that provides an even fight. The use of the B5N2 Kate as a stand-in for the missing TBD Devastator appears to have made not much difference, in the end. The advantages that the IJN aircraft enjoyed in real life - long range and high maneuverability - do not yield the same good results here in Aces High, where the USN pilots are fully briefed on IJN aircraft. The real-life IJN always tried to launch air strikes from the longest possible range, intending to remain beyond the range of USN carrier-based planes. So it's back to the drawing board for me...    *sigh*

Here are the bomber pilots listed in the logs as having inflicted the coup de grāce on enemy ships:

Frame 1 ==============================

ALLIES ----------------------

CV - CUTT
DD - GreyGooz

AXIS ----------------------

CV - luckie
CA - RedBrd

CV - tunesV
DD - DrDigr1

Frame 2 ==============================

ALLIES ----------------------

CV - Bhawk51
CA - Joker1
DD - Bigcat

CV - AKWxMan
DD - AKTincan    (wtg!   ;)  )

Frame 3 ==============================

ALLIES ----------------------

CV - Sik1

CV - BLBird
CA - Snaps

AXIS ----------------------

CV - bgoldy



For the number-crunchers out there, this is a Zip archive that contains the spreadsheets used to calculate the scores:

http://kenshelby.us/fso-2015-06/fso-2015-06-scores.zip



Thanks for flying FSO!   :salute



"The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'." - Randy Pausch

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Offline Nefarious

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2015, 10:48:43 AM »
I don't think you need the drawing board...  Was a fun fight.  Flew the Allied Kate in frame 2 and had a blast.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline puller

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 11:56:18 AM »
My attack plan looks to have worked for Frame 1  :aok ...albeit we still didn't take the frame and everyone got killed as with most of my attack plans... :uhoh  but the guys got both Allied cvs so I guess that's good....wtg IJN  :salute

Bino...PTO scenarios are the hardest to get things "even"   the allied pilots do know whats up...and they ain't fallin' for it...

During the Pacific Scenario I got all the fighters I had killed multiple times...I tried squadron tactics...large squadron tactics...horde tactics...we went through the entire war, with my pilots dying over and over again no matter what I tried   :bhead

IMHO...the early war Japanese plane-set outclasses the early war American stuff...but your not gonna bait the allied squads into the type of fight you want...on your attacks...I still haven't figured out how to get an IJN attack into a guarded CV without losing 90% of my forces...You can send in fighters first, you can send in 2 separate mid-sized squadrons at different times in fighters first...but once the wildcat pilots see the IJN attack planes and dive on them there is no stopping that train wreck...

I have the most fun in these PTO setups...and your not gonna see me on the Allied side in one of these either...I'm with Nef on this...there is no need to go back to the drawing board...great job Bino  :salute

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Offline pops57

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 02:46:58 PM »
My squad had fun while expecting an outcome such as this. Short of remodeling some aircraft ( both sides armor/sealing tanks, or remove both from each side) I think about the only reliable way would be to overwhelm the allied forces with numbers. My son who is new to the game had an idea I have not read anything similar to. He asked if the outcomes we experienced were typical for the Pacific. We told him often yes it's a -- I just hope I can drop my ord. before I die thing--. He thought some and later asked if it would be possible to do something like this. He asked if the game could support a kamikaze group. More specifically he thought it might be fun to intermix them with all IJN groups with no outward indication of which were Kamikazes. Further he thought it would be fun to assign the K pilots by randomly generated orders given after launch! No one would know until launch if they were the ' Divine Wind' or not. The K aircraft would have to be given a damage capability if they made contact with a boat of course. We all thought it could be fun. Anyway we had a blast and thank you for all you hard work to make fso so much fun to be a part of. My two sons and I fly fso, we enjoy the time we spend here staying connected though we are hundreds of miles apart.  :salute pops57 
 

Offline APDrone

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 04:04:07 PM »
Bino.. Don't beat yourself up on the balance issue with EW PTO. 

There are all sorts of factors as to the success the Japanese enjoyed in the real war that simply cannot be modeled.  Morale, Experience, good ol' dumb luck.

If you want to mess around with scoring, it would help to count bombers as practically worthless if they are destroyed after they have released ord.   

I think subbing in the B5N for the TBD was an excellent decision.. albeit it doesn't appear to have made that much of a difference, a lot of that is due to the ones that got to drop weren't caught early. 

Also, restrict SBD to 500lb egg to get it closer to what the D3A was.  That might even out BDA numbers a little.

It still was fun.. and I think Joker is still grinning from hitting something with a fish.

 :salute
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Offline Lizard

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015, 07:25:27 PM »
Thanks!
 :airplane:
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Offline MachNix

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2015, 10:35:39 AM »
I agree with APDrone's suggestion to restrict SBDs to 500lb bombs.  It would only take 5 SBDs with the 1600lb AP bomb to sink a carrier (8,000lbs of damage) allowing them to have lots of escorts/defenders.  But it would take 16 D3As to do the same amount of damage which would not leave that many pilots to fly in the fighter role.

Offline SlipKnt

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2015, 01:11:38 PM »
My squad had fun while expecting an outcome such as this. Short of remodeling some aircraft ( both sides armor/sealing tanks, or remove both from each side) I think about the only reliable way would be to overwhelm the allied forces with numbers. My son who is new to the game had an idea I have not read anything similar to. He asked if the outcomes we experienced were typical for the Pacific. We told him often yes it's a -- I just hope I can drop my ord. before I die thing--. He thought some and later asked if it would be possible to do something like this. He asked if the game could support a kamikaze group. More specifically he thought it might be fun to intermix them with all IJN groups with no outward indication of which were Kamikazes. Further he thought it would be fun to assign the K pilots by randomly generated orders given after launch! No one would know until launch if they were the ' Divine Wind' or not. The K aircraft would have to be given a damage capability if they made contact with a boat of course. We all thought it could be fun. Anyway we had a blast and thank you for all you hard work to make fso so much fun to be a part of. My two sons and I fly fso, we enjoy the time we spend here staying connected though we are hundreds of miles apart.  :salute pops57 
 

My 13 year old son is about to begin this weekend and will get into FSO as soon as I can teach him some basics.  I am looking forward to it and glad to see others have their kids on also.

Regarding the Kamakazi thing...

I believe 3 or 4 years ago at the end of the frame there was a kamakazi attack on our fleet.  And we lost the boat.  It was frowned upon (I think) yet I thought it was genius.

I think that as a CiC you weigh the options and see what points you would get saving the planes or send them for the 100 point CV and 50 point CAs. 

I think that in special rules, you could institute that Allied forces MUST land.  Axis forces don't have to.  Would stay exciting all the way to the bitter end.  Just have a friendly CV in the next sector to recover on.

You would have to attack the CV but it would be assumed you don't make it and can't get home in time to land the plane.  They would  carry bombs and release the bombs while dropping on the boat.

I think it has possibilities...  but ONLY in Pacific Theater


+1 for me


   :rock
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Offline Viper61

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2015, 03:02:55 PM »
Bino:

  I believe there to be more factors than numbers per side at Frame start or trying to get the plane set match ups perfect.  My comments:

     I like the Coral Sea scenario.  Im not a real early war guy but the plane setups are very close.  Which means it comes down to the guys which is the way I like the scenario's.

     This is not a back to the drawing board.  Tweaking yes.

     Subbing of the B5N for the Devistater was good keep it.  Get 1 US skin for it so that I will stop my whining about flying a Lend lease IJN plane with stolen IJN torpedo's to sink IJN ships that look like USN flattops!!!!  :lol

     I agree the SBD should be restricted to the 500lb bomb to better match the D3A's 250kg bomb load.  This would more even up the sides.

     The island recovery fields were nice.  I would remove them next time.  Its not real in many cases.  Cant move them either.  Even in the last scenario they could be used to ones advantage.  in short if your boat sinks your screwed, just like in real life.  I think the non fighting Task Group further back and completely out of range for use is the better option.

     The Zero to F4 match up is pretty close.  I know some will argue both sides but they are fairly close once you get past the speed, maneuverability, range, firepower etc etc.

     The scenario was a little bland in that the ships never moved.  During the course of the battle the sides really weren't perparred for the "search" factor of the engagement.  I think we proved that each side could locate the Task Groups fairly quickly given they always started almost from the center of the grid sectors.  What I would like to see is the box's shifting and moving with maybe Frame 1 at extreme range replicating the first sightings. Frame 2 closer as the fleets maneuver towards each other.  Frame 3 at close range with second strike capability.  And you guys need to bring back the BIG BOAT BATTLE as a side show to the main engagement after H+60.  That is a hoot!!  I would recommend 2 TG's vs 2 TG's so that involvement can be greater.

             One twist on the next ocean going scenario recommendation.  Make the "search" a bigger part of the game play.  So using this scenario as an example.  Each side has 2 Task Groups but has 3 Task Group box's.  One sector doesn't have a Task Group, place them close together.  This would force larger forces to be used for searching.  Strike Packages would have to launch more towards the center and wait for search AC to locate and report.  Also don't place the starting Task Group in the center each time.  Just an idea.

     Squads - Not all squads are created equal.  Some small squads like the 111st fight like larger squads (see Frame 3 results).  Likewise some larger squads don't do as well as their numbers would lead you to believe.  Who's in that squad as well as how they coordinate and fight is more important than the shear numbers.  Plainly if your in a squad that shows up to the FSO with 5 Min's to spare and you have to download a game map to enter, find out who the CIC is, find out what your mission is because you didn't read the email traffic well then your probably not going to do as well as compared to the squads that do much more.  FYI I'm not worried about offending those guys because they wont be reading this post because they don't care.

     Squad CO's:  Some can command and lead much larger groups and they make it look easy.  Others cant.  Others have military experience which directly relates or they have been flying in the FSO for more than 10 years and they are just plain good.

     CIC plans and command and control:  Some plans look like they were hastily put out Wednesday night with nothing more than dividing up the side and issuing the good old "Go for it" plan.  And others put a lot of time and energy into the process, and it shows.  If your not creative and thinking of new ways to help your side win, or using every measure of advantage you can then your not planning to the fullest.  Then your just going through the motions of CIC booty duty.  Most planners don't take into account the scenario win.  Going into Frame 3 as the ALLIED CIC I didn't plan that frame as i would have liked, I planned it to win the scenario.  If your tasked with CIC duty and you plan it yourself your going to be at a disadvantage against the 325th when we CIC a frame as we employ a planning staff meaning emails, phone calls and conference calls.  Just saying.

     Comm's:  If your running a mission without a dedicated comm's channel with commo officers only relaying flash traffic like I do your going to be at a disadvantage because while your typing my comm's guys have already relayed the flash traffic.  And I will always have at least 30 second head start on you while you try to type and fight, everytime.  And in a rush how many times have grid coordinates been typed in wrong.  Or you ask for a resend and the guy who sent the message is now engaged and not looking at the text buffer.  Doesn't happen when you use a Comm's officer who can fight and talk on multiple channels all at once.  This is how split second timing is achieved.  These actions count toward victory's.

  So when you look at this scenario where the plane setups were pretty close.  The numbers were close as well.  So why the ALLIED victory.  Yes the 1000lb bomb load of the SBD's played a part, but didn't carry the scenario.  However I would say the side squad selection, CO's, CIC's plans, comm's and ultimately the squad members themselves in how well they practiced, coordinated, rehearsed and then communicated during fight made the difference.  Things the CM team really cant control well.  Not unless you keep a little black book on every squad like I do  :noid
 

Offline Big Rat

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2015, 06:02:24 PM »
Good post Viper61 :aok

This can't be overstated " However I would say the side squad selection, CO's, CIC's plans, comm's and ultimately the squad members themselves in how well they practiced, coordinated, rehearsed and then communicated during fight made the difference.  Things the CM team really cant control well."

I am glad to see more squads practicing ahead of the FSO, it used to be rare to see.  Now 4 or 5 custom arenas up for practice ahead of time seems to be fairly common.

Not sure I want to know what the  "little black book" says about VF-17 though :uhoh

 :salute
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Offline nooby52

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2015, 09:22:01 PM »
Yes indeed Viper, a very interesting write-up.  :aok

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Offline captain1ma

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2015, 09:22:31 PM »
id like to see the 5 inchers opened up so I can "Really" protect my boat!! the allies would never stand a chance against me!!

Offline Muzzy

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Re: June 2015 FSO - The Battle of the Coral Sea - Final Scores
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2015, 04:23:31 AM »
Other than changing the side numbers, one possibility might be to let the IJN have a flight of Bettys out of Rabaul and create a cruiser task force for the Allies to simulate Admiral Crace's TF 44. Weigh the scores so that hitting TF 44 has enough value to require defending it  historically accurate given the disparity of the fleets at this time). This would give the IJN a potentially better weapon platform and require the Allies to split their fighter defenses a bit more.


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