Defensively Vertical?

[cav58d]

I'm looking for some tactics on how you would employ a fighter that is considered a strong vertical performer, when in a fight and the enemy has your six.

109's for example.  Always hear their strength is their ability to fight in the vertical.  Lets say i'm in a K model, good energy state, and there is a mid/late war fighting 1k behind me and maneuvering.  How do I use the vertical to my advantage?

Is their an initial pitch you want to go for?  45 degrees and keep it there?  45 and increasing until the stall?  Plant it right on it's tail at 90?

Thanks for the tips!

<S>

[JOACH1M]

If you are in a k4 and an enemy is 1k behind you "maneuvering" you will easily out climb him. just fly straight up and come straight back down.

[cav58d]

Let me rephrase...My only resort is to go vertical and the bad guy is going to follow.

[JOACH1M]

Let me rephrase...My only resort is to go vertical and the bad guy is going to follow.

Watch any of skyyrs films on youtube honestly. Its not easy to explain.

[Mister Fork]

Let me rephrase...My only resort is to go vertical and the bad guy is going to follow.

...and hope they're not in any fast accelerating aircraft. The K4 is near the top, but the LA-5/7, Tempest, Spit XIV will eat you up and spit out the nuts if you try to 'zoom' up and away from them at a lower altitude. But they're the only ones.

[JOACH1M]

...and hope they're not in any fast accelerating aircraft. The K4 is near the top, but the LA-5/7, Tempest, Spit XIV will eat you up and spit out the nuts if you try to 'zoom' up and away from them at a lower altitude. But they're the only ones.

If a spit14 or Temp is behind you while you are in a K4 just turn sharply. The K4 can turn much tighter than either of those planes.

[ACE]

I like to utilize a vertical scissor or a vertical rolling scissor until the other guy stalls out.

[TequilaChaser]

Learn/practice E-management to the best of your ability, Lyme, then get with a Trainer or ACE (Spek is his gameid) or any of the other frequent KOTH players that are considered to be in the top of the litter...

Ask them to teach you all the different ways/types of Reversals... and to teach you how to drag your attacker vertically in a Spiral climb, learn how to Spiral climb in your particular aircraft both climbing turning left and turning right...

Hope this helps

TC

[TequilaChaser]

I like to utilize a vertical scissor or a vertical rolling scissor until the other guy stalls out.

I like to do this also, as well as utilizing the spiral climb

TC

[JunkyII]

Let me rephrase...My only resort is to go vertical and the bad guy is going to follow.

If this is the case something has already gone terribly wrong and any situation where you can what if it all day is hard to explain how to beat it.

So you have a Spit 9(type fighter) 1K behind your K4....you have E and they manuever ed to get there on your 6 (this is the situation I'm reading from your posts)...

If they maneuvered to get there and have less E then you...a zoom climb to get above your opponent is easy. You base your pitch not off a standard say like 45 degrees but off what your opponent decides to do with his pitch. If they match your pitch, make yours steeper, if they shallow out to keep energy you can shallows yours....I would also suggest adding a spiral into it to force them to lose that energy to follow you...in a spiral climb your objective is to create an angle where they flip their plane over to follow your spiral....this is where they burn the most energy because gravity and lift are both pointed toward the earth.

If the plane is closing on you....going vertical is the best way to close the energy gap between you and your opponent. A lot of people preach the split s but you are just giving up the fight over and over...yea it's safe but it's going to end poorly.

You use a vertical manuever to force an overshoot. Going vertical in a reverse is risky but if done correctly leads to better position to force a rolling scissors or vertical scissor or even to gain a shot opportunity as the enemy flys by. You do this by starting a turn creating an obtuse angle between their nose and your wingtip. As they get closer you tigthen that turn to create a 90 degree angle from your fuselage and their nose...at this point just before they have guns you go vertical into a barrel roll as the over shoot you try to keep your roll behind their 3 9 line (their wings) kinda like you would in a turn fight...

These are hard to type about, I do feel like the community deserves a good video explanation because a lot of players struggle against this.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

If you are in a k4 and an enemy is 1k behind you "maneuvering" you will easily out climb him. just fly straight up and come straight back down.

Be carefull of the P47M, you are not safe at ranges up to 600-800y. You need to be at least 1.5K out before you go straight vertical.
In a K4 ur best bet is to force that overshoot by pulling/pushing just enough to be out of tje way of the guns and rely on the ubber climb. Once at slow speed nose up, the 109 will always give you that extra altitude and stall later than your adversary.

[Owlblink]

Going to highlight and ask questions on some information to try to help clarify.

You use a vertical manuever to force an overshoot. Going vertical in a reverse is risky but if done correctly leads to better position to force a rolling scissors or vertical scissor or even to gain a shot opportunity as the enemy flys by. You do this by starting a turn creating an obtuse angle{mathematically speaking, greater than 90 degrees and less than 180}
between their nose and your wingtip {This is where one finds the visualization a challange. Would you measure from the inside wing or the outside wing of the defender, relative to the attacker's nose? It may serve us better to talk in terms of angle off tail, where we discribe the desired angle we want the attacker's flight path/nose off of the defender's tail.
 As they get closer you tigthen that turn to create a 90 degree angle from your fuselage {this sounds like we are now discribing something equal to Angle off Tail, just in different terms} and their nose...at this point just before they have guns you go vertical into a barrel roll as the over shoot you try to keep your roll behind their 3 9 line (their wings) kinda like you would in a turn fight...

These are hard to type about, I do feel like the community deserves a good video explanation because a lot of players struggle against this.

This situation is great when you know (from experience) that they will get too close to you if you simply go for a sheer vertical hammerhead or over-the-top reversal, giving them a floating object to shoot at; same reasoning when we are talking about a spiral climb or proper rooe-a-dope (drawn out spiral climb, increasingly tighter as needed). A good exercise when attempting a vertical reversal is for the defender to have their wingtip towards the assailant - this usually makes the defender a smaller target and you are halfway across your roll towards where they will overshoot you. Try to use your plane's torque in your favor, when you can it is often best to have the atacker off of your right wing in a 109 so as to use the engine's torque to aid you in your counterclockwise (or widdershins) roll.

[The Fugitive]

I'm looking for some tactics on how you would employ a fighter that is considered a strong vertical performer, when in a fight and the enemy has your six.

109's for example.  Always hear their strength is their ability to fight in the vertical.  Lets say i'm in a K model, good energy state, and there is a mid/late war fighting 1k behind me and maneuvering.  How do I use the vertical to my advantage?

Is their an initial pitch you want to go for?  45 degrees and keep it there?  45 and increasing until the stall?  Plant it right on it's tail at 90?

Thanks for the tips!

<S>

As you can see there are a bunch of answers to the question you posed. Strait zoom climb, spiral climb, 38s can hang on the props longer due to the counter rotating props and have control under 50 mph, hi yo-yos, rolling scissors, and on and on. There isnt many one move suits all. In a K4 vs and spit 9 you can do "this", in a K4 against a 190 you can do "this" but not "that".

It all depends on a hundred variables. Your speed, their speed, your E, their E, how your plane climbs how theirs does, how yours zooms how theirs zoom ( there different, ever get caught by an A20 in a zoom?)

Either pose a more specific question, or as a general question you can see there is a lot of practice in your future    

[morfiend]

Cav,
 

   I usually stay out of these conversations,mostly because it's difficult to explain with just words and someone will always find some fault to pick and the thread goes sideways!

  First thing I would do is turn into the enemy,trying to spoil any shot they may have and to cause them to change their pursuit course.

  It would be much simpler to show you than try to explain all of this,I'm usually in the TA most evenings,drop by and give me a shout and I'm sure I can give you some tips that you can work on and help you develop a proper approach to convert from defensive to offensive when being chased by an enemy!


   

 PS: there is no singularly approach as there are too many variables,but there are some dont do this,like pulling straight up in front of the enemy!!

[cav58d]

<S> thanks everyone.  TA sounds good!