Patience wearing thin

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Maverick:
The photo of the ammo that Pyro posted in that same thread TOTALLY answers the question regarding ammo leathality differences between the LW 20mm and the Hispano's. The size of the casing tells the whole story. The larger case holds more powder. More powder = more velocity for the same size / weight projectile. More velocity means more lethality / penetration and FLATTER trajectory with a longer range.    

Huh yeah...you surely have noted too that the MAIN part of the round (I.E. the part that flies towards the target) is nearly of the same size on the Mauser round and on the Hispano one?

Then can you explain me why one ping with hispano means immediate damage while with mausers only means the enemy is laffin at you?.

And dont tell me that "More velocity means more lethality " as this is not true for HE rounds. And Mausers were ALL HE rounds while Hispanos, if anything here, are mixed ammo.

Easier to hit with hispanos? yes...

Better damage with hispanos?...can you please tell me why? Because I dont see why.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-14-2000).]

[funked]

MG 151/20 projectile weighs 92 grams, Hispano projectile weighs 130 grams.

MG 151/20 muzzle velocity 800 m/s, Hispano projectile muzzle velocity 880 m/s.

So at the muzzle, Hispano kinetic energy is about 1.7 times more than MG 151/20.  

And the Hispano round has better aerodynamic performance (greater ratio of weight to frontal area) by a factor of 1.4

So the Hispano round starts off with 1.7 times as much KE, and will slow down at a rate 40% less than the MG 151/20.

By the time you get to the target, the Hispano round is going to have WAY more kinetic energy than a MG 151/20 round.  I'm guessing 2 or 3 times as much at the ranges we fire at in AH.

The difference in HE load would have to be pretty big to make up for the huge difference in kinetic energy.

Also would not the higher density of the Hispano round allow it to penetrate better?

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by funked:

The difference in HE load would have to be pretty big to make up for the huge difference in kinetic energy.

Also would not the higher density of the Hispano round allow it to penetrate better?

well the question was a serious one, as my knowledge here is q bit limited...

Funked the kynetic energy on a round what means? that it does penetrate more?...then you only are blowing a bigger deeper hole...but the HE charge is the same isnt it?...and while a hole can be damaging, the explosion of a HE round can blast away a big piece of the plane...

also AFAIK density helps the penetration, but not the damage done, isnt it? (again my knowledge is liimted here, so I well may be wrong).

I used to think that Kynetic energy doesnt help too much to HE rounds as their main power was in the exploding round, not in the hittin impact.

Is that correct or am I wrong?

[MANDOBLE]

funked, I think our data about cannons is taken from the same source (same web page basically). I'm starting to doubt a lot about its accuracy, hope you have, at least, two of three more sources pointing to the same numbers. As a side note, along some books, I've read a lot of "good" words about mauser guns, and, "curiously" none about hispanos (except poor realiability).

[funked]

RAM, from what I have read, it seems the HE in any 20 mm is so small that KE was still the main factor unless the round hits fuel or other flammables.

[Wanker]

BigJim, do you plan on flying this Thursday night, by chance?

<winks at Funked>

------------------
P/O banana
XO 308(Polish) Sqn "City of Cracow" RAF

"Look at me when I HO you!"

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by funked:
RAM, from what I have read, it seems the HE in any 20 mm is so small that KE was still the main factor unless the round hits fuel or other flammables.

umm that surprises me...I have seen quite many photos on B17 damage done by a few rounds of mausers 20mm that indicates just the opposite...

AFAIK Mausers were very very effective antibomber weapon as well as antifighter weapon...that means that the damage they did was quite serious...

but well as I said, my knowledge about damage is quite limited...so I'll shut up for now  

[pzvg]

Hmmm <scream,roar,sound of things being broken> Ya know I'm beginning ta think that HTC should scrap the whole airwar concept and focus on the real online brutality that gives so much meaning to war in all it's flavors incarnate
CAST YOUR VOTES HERE FOR WEBWAR2000, a massively multi-player simulation of antagonistic behavior,spelling errors,flames,dweeb trolls and gross misrepersentations of the truth.
"Brother, this trip's gonna make LSD feel like aspirin"

------------------
pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[Fishu]

I bet that Hispano has some sort of APHE round in AH, instead of AP..
Its blast radius is simply awesome for just AP round.
It penetrates very well (can't disagree with that after destroying few tanks through their fronts) and blows very well for AP also.

My notices with Hispano: at close ranges, it does not vary much from MG151/20 with effect per hit, but from long ranges like 800 yards, it is simply devastating compared to MG151/20.
It's anti-tank capabilities are also AWESOME, because you don't really have to bother to think much your approach angle on a tank, you can as well just go in low and kill panzer through its front plates. (I know that top hits has chance of killing PZ-IVh, but frontal hits counts as kills?)
IMHO, 20mm shouldn't be able to kill PZ-IVh through front that often, definetly not from beyond 200 yards and I doubt that even 100 yards would do it.

Then.. let's get to .50 caliber, you're very lucky if you get a tank killed, even halftracks takes awesome amount of hits. (I did once strafe with B26 turrets M3 alot close range, he lost only suspension)
My opinion for .50s AT capability is that it should be greater.
Then we get to planes, like said, you have good chances of hitting from 500 yards, even though hit effect gets alot more reduced from that range than with a cannon, because loss of energy and what i think, more dispersion than cannons has.
But from close, I could trade my Bf109s 20mm and 13mms to 4 .50 calibers any time.
.50 calibers also has advantage in ammo count, you can spray & pray fairly much and those hits has good chance of damaging engine. (which seems too easy to do in AH with any gun, no matter do you really hit engine or not)

Conclusion in my opinion is that guns are good for air to air right now, but AT capabilities are off scale.

..what comes to 7.92mm guns, those are crackshot accurate, no dispersion   (with experience of few pilot kills)
but effectiveness otherwise if you can't afford hitting of pilot, you could as well butter them. (unless its non hispano plane vs. tank and you're the tanker, in that case you can practice shooting with AAMG)


** This is my opinion of the guns, no flame or squeaking changes it, so be smart if you reply to me and dont try to arque, just tell your opinion without arguing, thanks. (and i will do the same if theres need) **

[Camel]

Gimmie a T, gimmie an O, gimmie an A, gimmie D!

Toad for pres!  

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by funked:
RAM, from what I have read, it seems the HE in any 20 mm is so small that KE was still the main factor unless the round hits fuel or other flammables.

The Hispano had a pretty good powder charge, and I believe the mauser holds more. Needless to say the MG 151's hollowed out charge was way to thin a shell for heavy AP. I think it was a particularly good design, because the slower muzzle velocity and lower density allowed the round to explode before exiting the aircraft again.

I've read that some pilots prefered the AP rounds in the M2 Hispano due to the HE passing straight through the plane without exploding, or even the case shattering on armor plating without detonation.

The 30mm was like a big grenade  

- Jig

[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 08-14-2000).]