Author Topic: What do you brits think of this book and author?  (Read 4885 times)

Offline Dago

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What do you brits think of this book and author?
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2003, 08:54:52 AM »
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If a burglar does go into a "hot" home... he is probly rabid.. like a skunk in the daylight... he needs to be shot. He is up to more than simple burglary.


A criminal who wants to steal but not hurt anyone or risk getting caught will only break into an empty home.  If he choose to break into a home knowing people are at home, he has through his actions stated he is perfectly willing to hurt or kill the occupants.

These are the ones you want to be armed against.


dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline beet1e

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I've started reading it...
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2003, 03:54:40 AM »
I’ve read a few chapters of this book, but not in the order they appear. Much of the beginning of the book is material about Britain in the middle ages, and is not relevant to armed crime in Britain today. There’s also a great deal of historical data which while interesting does not relate to the title of the book. So I skipped ahead…

It has been said that some folks on this BBS have got a hard-on for America, by which it is meant that some people are obsessed by American issues. By the same token, it has to be said that Joyce Lee Malcolm has got a wide-on for England. Instead of providing an objective analysis about crime patterns in our (relatively) unarmed society, she appears to have started out with the conclusions, and then goes in search of  historical facts to substantiate them.

If the object of her analysis was to prove that guns don’t cause crime, then a more objective analysis would have been to consider other unarmed societies – Japan, France, Spain, Ireland, Iceland, New Zealand, Bermuda – we have guys from all those places on this BBS who are satisfied with their country’s unarmed status and do not want to see a proliferation of weapons where they live.

The book attempts to make a correlation between unrelated facts. For example, despite a gun ban, Britain has seen an increase in crime in a period when US crime has gone down. The author points to this fact and tries to draw the conclusion that “guns don’t cause crime”. But in another passage in the book, the author herself presents the reasons why American crime levels have decreased while British crime levels have increased. And that’s because America has enough police who are efficiently deployed, with greater crime detection rates, adequate jail accommodation and tougher sentencing. Here, we have too few jails, not enough police therefore lower detection rates, not enough jails, and over lenient sentencing. The guns issue does not enter into the equation.

The book also makes comparisons between Britain and America using relative values. For example, the author mentions a “dramatic increase” in British crime, and a “dramatic decrease” in American crime. As the theme of the book is gun violence, one is entitled to assume that the crime under discussion is gun crime. If Britain were to see a doubling of gun homicides, the figure would still only be about 120. A paltry figure compared to the American tally, but a doubling would be dramatic. By the same token, the dramatic fall in American crime means that unlike 1992 in which more than 13,000 people in America were victims of gun homicide, the total now is only about half that. But despite changing crime levels (Britain’s “dramatic” increase and America’s “dramatic” decrease), American levels of gun related homicide per 100,000 population continue to be many, many times greater than Britain’s. The author avoids the issue by discussing the issue in relative terms and by avoiding actual statistics.

There is interesting material within the pages of this book. It covers a lot of our history and is interesting if off topic. Marks out of ten? Right now, I give it a 5. But I’ve not finished reading it.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2003, 08:33:52 AM »
beetle.. I believe it is you who read the book with preconcieved notions... least it appears that way..   I believe the book mostly points out that gun in britan never caused an increase in homicides...  an increase in homicides is what you and the people on this board claim to see as the reason that you should give up the basic human right (the right you in britan allways preeviously believed in) ....

you gave up your rights over... over womanly hysteria and no real logic...  for your troubles it appears that you got an increase in some particularly humiliating crime... people breaking into your "castle" while you were there and you being not only defensless but.... bound by law to act in a cowardly way... to run and hide.

I have argued in another thread that your legal system is releasing far too many criminals... Have been told that no... we are arresting too many in the U.S.   you can't have it both ways.  

I believe the premis of her book is that no matter what... arming the citizens of a country does not increase homicides (the reason most stated by tyrants and women for neuttering the populace)... the rate stays about the same with or without guns... they hysterical scenaarios of people shooting each other over fender benders or killing their kids who arrive home late never happen.

A lot of people in the U.S. don't have guns and are protected under the umbrella of the ones who do... same for concealled carry... that is why crime goes down.  Some people in the states never see a gun other than on TV or movies their whole life.  

The amount of crime stopped with guns per year in the U.S. does not mean there is more crime here so much as it means that less is completed than would be without guns.    

To say that you feel safe and crime free in england is silly to us... you were saying how my locks on my house were inadequate... I have a door lock and deadbolt.    In big cities with no guns they have 5 or six deadbolts and steel lined doors... you would be proud.

who is living in fear?

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2003, 12:36:34 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
beetle.. I believe it is you who read the book with preconcieved notions... least it appears that way..  
You would have said that to any Brit who did not completely agree with the book.

I have never suffered a break-in or even an attempted break-in, and I don't live in fear. I've never even had a car broken into. But since moving house in Sept., I have had two Chubb locks fitted to the front door. :) My reasoning is that a burglar would not waste time on my house, but would go to one of the other houses that does not have 5-lever locks like mine.
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I have argued in another thread that your legal system is releasing far too many criminals... Have been told that no... we are arresting too many in the U.S. you can't have it both ways.
No, I agree with you. Not enough criminals get jail sentences, and the jail sentences that are handed down are too short. We need the kind of prisons like you have at Marion,IL and also that place in CO where the WTC bomber (1993) is banged up. We have many opportunist burglars because they know they're unlikely to go to jail even if convicted.

The cause of thousands of gun homicides in the US has two ingredients, each of which in isolation is not necessarily dangerous. Those ingredients are 1)social deprivation of poor minorities and ethnic groups leading to surviving by trading drugs and the turf wars that go with it, and 2)the availability of guns. Guns on their own are not dangerous, given proper handling - eg. Switzerland - plenty of guns, but no ethnic mixing/large scale drug problems etc.  Social deprivation/drugs/ethnic minorities on its own will not lead to thousands of gun homicides without guns being present - that's what we have in Britain. Unfortunately, the US has both.
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arming the citizens of a country does not increase homicides
Well then how do you explain that the US has at least 50 times the number of gun homicides than countries like Britain, France, Spain, Japan, Iceland, Ireland, Bermuda, New Zealand...................... ...............

Offline anonymous

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What do you brits think of this book and author?
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2003, 01:51:41 PM »
someday in twenty years everyone is gonna have a pistol that can only fire inside their house. sensor on gun and sensor on house. gun used only to defend house from criminal. maybe when everyone have id chip civilian gun only work within twenty yds of convicted felon and not work if cop within twenty yds.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2003, 03:34:10 PM »
beetle... you did no that the rate of blacks incarcerated in the U.S. per 100,000 is six times that of whites.... we incarcerate all other minorities at the rat of double the amount of whites per 100,000  these figures are for people incarcerated on any given day...

while your rate of people incarcerated is less than ours.... the figures for black vs white are guess what?   6 times higher per 100,000 for black vs white and double for all other minorities per 100,000 vs white.

if you incarcerated all those you should be.... you would have pretty much the same situation as we do i betcha.   except... we have more prisons... you would have to build more.

The cause of thousands of gun homicides in the U.S. has nothing to do with guns.... the lack of thousands of homicides in your country has nothing to do with guns.... you gave up your rights for nothing.
lazs

Offline ravells

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« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2003, 04:34:54 PM »
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we incarcerate all other minorities at the rat of double the amount of whites per 100,000


Lasz...does this apply to Indians (I mean people from India - not Native Americans)?

Being one, I'd be curious to know. (serious question)

cheers

Ravs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2003, 05:43:52 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
The cause of thousands of gun homicides in the U.S. has nothing to do with guns.... the lack of thousands of homicides in your country has nothing to do with guns.... you gave up your rights for nothing.
Why does the US have about 50 times as many gun homicides than Britain?

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2003, 06:28:05 PM »
DMF:

If you want to see a lot of statistical analysis on this particular issue then John Lott is your man.

Hooligan

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2003, 09:08:55 AM »
raves... that statistic includes all "other" minorities combined... east indians and woo woo indians would be part of that statistic but it is not broken down... my guess is that more east indians would make up the british figure tho but I have no data.

beetle.... firearms or not... we allways kill people at a higher rate than you do per 100,000 be it with fists or knives or guns... the amount of guns makes no difference or... seems to actually decrease the amount of homicides.  

you have given up basic human rights for nothing.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2003, 09:16:39 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
beetle.... firearms or not... we allways kill people at a higher rate than you do per 100,000 be it with fists or knives or guns... the amount of guns makes no difference or... seems to actually decrease the amount of homicides.
Wrong. Only about 60 people a year in Britain are victims of gun homicide. That compares with many thousands in the US. Can you please explain why?

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2003, 09:28:12 AM »
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you have given up basic human rights for nothing.

lazs


Owning a gun is not a basic human right. Only a right granted to you by an accident of history. No other country has the same right in a written constitution.

You can be glad of that I suppose.

Remember the only rights you have are those granted to you by other people.  Except perhaps the right to life but even that right is flagrantly violated all the time.

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2003, 12:23:07 PM »
The right to own a gun is part of the basic human right of self defense.  The right to self defense is almost uniformly recognized throughout the world.  And anyplace this right is not recognized is not likely to be a pleasant place to live.

The way our government is supposed to work:

People have inalienable rights.  The government has powers granted to it by the people.  In practice this has hardly turned out to be uniformly adhered to.  Nonetheless, the results of this philosophy of government seem much more attractive than the competing philosophy of state supremacy over the individual.

Hooligan

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2003, 12:40:05 PM »
beetle.... your country has a homicide rate per 100,000 and my country has a homicide rate per 100,000....  

That rate does not change if you or we have gun laws or not... in fact ... the homicide rate may actually go down in states that have enlightened gun policies (no laws to speak of)...

If you are simply concerned with the method of homicide then.... you have succeeded.... less people kill each other with fireams in your country now.... they use other weapons.

u have given up your right to defend yourself for nothing.    

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #89 on: November 22, 2003, 02:48:46 AM »
Lazs, you're babbling. Yes, I'm fully aware that government agencies use a crime rate per 100,000 population to assess that crime. And per 100,000 population, gun homicides in the US are many times greater than in the UK. We've never had more than 100 in any year - the annual tally is normally about half that. That's less than 2,500 in the last 25 years which itself is less than half the US tally for any ONE year in the last 25.

So why is the US gun related homicide figure so much higher than the equivalent figure for any other civilised country? Could it just be possible that the availability of guns has something to do with it?