Author Topic: Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?  (Read 2983 times)

Offline Sikboy

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2003, 11:14:42 AM »
It's a bit like a Texas State court using a California state court ruling to add insight to a case. It's not manditory authority, as if it had come from the Texas Supreme Court, but just something they can consider in addition to other factors.

It's not like she's going to elect herself Queen of America or something lol.

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Offline capt. apathy

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2003, 11:41:52 AM »
her job is to interpret American law.  that's it.  
by even considering how the situation is handled elsewhere she only confuses the issue and poisons the decision.  (much like allowing a jury to hear irelivant testimony).

if congress wants to consider how other countrys do things when writting american law, that's fine and exceptable(although this should take a back seat to what the people who put them in office want).  

but the courts job is to interpret american law, not write law.

how would you feel if you did your best to follow the laws of our country,  played by the rulebook all the way down the line and then lost a lawsuit because somewhere else in the world what you did wasn't allowed.

one of the rights we have is to have our laws stated in writing (clearly stated would be nice but there are lawyers involved).

by allowing forign decissions to be considered you give then some degree of influence.  now a person can't just hire an attourney to guide him, and keep on the goodside of the law if he gets involved in a complicated issue.  

how do you know what countrys are going to be considered?  what if somecountrys go one way on an issue and others go another (very likely)?  which countrys decision is allowed to have influence in our courts?

  shouldn't they be required to anounce that when the law is written?  you're not given fair access to the law,  what if you go into a situation thinking the courts are going to take into consideration the way this was handled in brazil and you get to court and they blind-side you with a nova scotia precedent.

by the time a person makes it to be a judge (let alone a supreame court justice) they should no how to base a decision on relevant information and precedents only.

Offline capt. apathy

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2003, 11:46:40 AM »
Quote
It's a bit like a Texas State court using a California state court ruling to add insight to a case. It's not manditory authority, as if it had come from the Texas Supreme Court, but just something they can consider in addition to other factors.


not at all the same.  texas and california both work under the us constitution,  in the apeals process both cases would end up in the us supreame court eventually.  seperate branches of the same tree, so to speak.  this makes decisions in the other courts relevant as it gives a judge an idea as to if his decision is likely to be overruled.

Offline Dune

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2003, 11:52:37 AM »
Apathy is right.

Courts often look to laws in other US jurisdictions to see what other US courts do.  The is especially true if an issue that hasn't been dealt with before comes up.  Which happens surprisingly often.

Offline AKIron

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2003, 11:53:30 AM »
I would expect all of the Supreme Court Justices to be aware of foreign precedent. Is she suggesting that the Supreme Court begin making US law based on foreign law? Surely not as the Judicial branch of our government does not make law. Or at least they better not be making law.
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Offline midnight Target

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2003, 01:09:12 PM »
OH My GAWD!!!!

THIS is Horrible!!!! She wants to "GAIN INSIGHT"!!!!  The lousy commie no good biatch!! Next thing you know she'll be "LOOKING INTO" things before making her "DECISIONS".

Offline Sikboy

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2003, 01:16:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
not at all the same.  texas and california both work under the us constitution,  in the apeals process both cases would end up in the us supreame court eventually.  seperate branches of the same tree, so to speak.  this makes decisions in the other courts relevant as it gives a judge an idea as to if his decision is likely to be overruled.


Only if the case is appealed to the supreme court, in which case it would become manditory authority, and the Texas court would have no choice in the matter. My example is only applicable on State issues that have been settled below the SC level.

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Offline Dead Man Flying

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2003, 02:57:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
Only if the case is appealed to the supreme court, in which case it would become manditory authority, and the Texas court would have no choice in the matter. My example is only applicable on State issues that have been settled below the SC level.


Law geek.

I'm sure what SikBoy meant to say was that Texas and California belong to different federal circuits.  While Supreme Court rulings apply to the entire country, appeals rulings decided within a circuit (at the Circuit Court of Appeals level) but not successfully appealed to the United States Supreme Court become binding legal interpretations within that circuit only.

Thus while the 5th Circuit (Texas) and the 9th Circuit (California) both remain subserviant to the Supreme Court, appeals decisions made within one do not apply to the other.  Nonetheless, a judge from one circuit may use the decision of a judge in another circuit as "guidance" when forming an opinion of his own.  

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Offline Horn

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Re: Re: Re: Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2003, 03:06:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dune
But, it is my belief that the only piece of paper that should define the legality of our laws is the Consitution as it is presently written.


Interesting, one of the main authors of the document disagrees with you. He believed that the Constitution should be completely redone every 20 years or so.

h

Offline wklink

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2003, 03:31:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Horn
Interesting, one of the main authors of the document disagrees with you. He believed that the Constitution should be completely redone every 20 years or so.

h


Maybe, but the majority obviously didn't otherwise there would have been a provision for just that.

In fact, the only way to redo the constitution is through Constitutional convention.  The constitution was written so it would be exceedingly difficult to change without a supermajority vote.

The law of the land should be the Constitution.  It troubles me that people seem to think that it should be disregarded when inconvenient.  Unfortunately people on both sides of the political spectrum seem to run to bench legislation when it is decided that the will of the people is inconvenient or too slow.
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Offline Horn

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2003, 03:40:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wklink
In fact, the only way to redo the constitution is through Constitutional convention.  The constitution was written so it would be exceedingly difficult to change without a supermajority vote.

The law of the land should be the Constitution.  It troubles me that people seem to think that it should be disregarded when inconvenient.  Unfortunately people on both sides of the political spectrum seem to run to bench legislation when it is decided that the will of the people is inconvenient or too slow.


Why treat a document authored by men as holy writ? The framers of our Constitution were smart enough to speculate that there would be many societal differences occurring in the years to come that they could not possibly have the foresight to address in the document they created.

As Thomas Jefferson stated:

"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it and labored with it. It deserved well of its country. It was very like the present but without the experience of the present; and forty years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading; and this they would say themselves were they to rise from the dead." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:40

He had more to say when it comes to constitutional revision:

"Let us provide in our constitution for its revision at stated periods. What these periods should be nature herself indicates. By the European tables of mortality, of the adults living at any one moment of time, a majority will be dead in about nineteen years. At the end of that period, then, a new majority is come into place; or, in other words, a new generation. Each generation is as independent as the one preceding, as that was of all which had gone before. It has then, like them, a right to choose for itself the form of government it believes most promotive of its own happiness; consequently, to accommodate to the circumstances in which it finds itself that received from its predecessors; and it is for the peace and good of mankind that a solemn opportunity of doing this every nineteen or twenty years should be provided by the constitution, so that it may be handed on with periodical repairs from generation to generation to the end of time, if anything human can so long endure." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:42

...and further:

"Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. It may be said, that the succeeding generation exercising, in fact, the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to nineteen years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be, indeed, if every form of government were so perfectly contrived, that the will of the majority could always be obtained, fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils, bribery corrupts them, personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise, so as to prove to every practical man, that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:459

Sounds reasonable to me.

h

Offline AKIron

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2003, 03:42:49 PM »
Our constitution isn't written in stone, just look at all the ammendments. However, we do have procedures whereby it is changed, Supreme Court interpretation isn't it.
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Offline capt. apathy

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2003, 03:48:54 PM »
Quote
I would expect all of the Supreme Court Justices to be aware of foreign precedent.


I see nothing wrong with being aware of these laws.  

but o'connor says we should consider other countries when making decissions.

this is a completely different thing.

I'm aware of many things that I don't take into consideration when making decisoins.

I may be aware that it's about 85 degrees in Hawaii right now, but I don't take that into consideration when deciding if I need a coat when leaving the house.

why?  it's not relevant.

same thing with the laws of other countries.  here we go by american law and the law elsewhere isn't relavant.  

someone who is unable to make that distinction isn't qualified to be a judge.

Offline Sikboy

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2003, 04:05:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm sure what SikBoy meant to say was that Texas and California belong to different federal circuits.


:p

Actually, I had hoped to avoid the Federal Circuit system all together, because I was using seperate State Legal systems to illustrate my point.
But you're right, If you're talking about the federal system 9th circuit descisions are non-bindinig to 5th Circuit courts, unless they've been appealed to the supreme court.

I mean, it's pretty much the same situation, but I found it more compelling from the POV of State Courts, since we're talking about considering Alien legal rulings.

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Offline wklink

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Justice O’Conner, Ignoring American Law?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2003, 04:06:32 PM »
As I said before, he was one that thought it should have been changed every 20 years.  However, Thomas Jefferson was just one member of the constitutional convention that framed our Constitution.  I agree with him in his assessment that the Constitution shouldn't be an 'Ark of the Covenant'.  Ours isn't, that is why constitutional ammendments are made to the document.

I could imagine the chaos that would ensue if we re-wrote the document every 20 years.  Nuts, we can't agree on a budget half the time.  

I don't mind changes to the constitution, I believe that we have created a better society because of it.  I don't believe that judges should be making laws on their own.  It should be the will of the people.  If the law created by lawmakers is against the constitution then it should be struck down.  If people want it anyway then ammend the constitution.  Don't just go find a judge to change it for you.  That is my point.
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