Author Topic: Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...  (Read 5433 times)

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2003, 10:01:24 AM »
So if they took your guns away in the name of national security, you would have no problem with this?

But forget that, let's say you are a political opponent of an incumbent, would you want him sniffing your underwear?
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline muckmaw

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3874
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2003, 10:12:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
So if they took your guns away in the name of national security, you would have no problem with this?

But forget that, let's say you are a political opponent of an incumbent, would you want him sniffing your underwear?


I'm torn on that one, Six, much like my underwear.

On one hand, I dont think the government fears Joe Citizen with his winchester. If they wanted to do something nasty, they would, and would succeed. I dont think we'd win like in "Red Dawn". Wait, they lost...but how bout that C. Thomas Howell...

I cant see what the motivation would be for them to roll over the populace like an invading army.

On the other hand, I think guns are pretty harmless in the hands of law abiding citizens. People who register their guns, dont commit crimes...normally.

So I'd say I'm for people owning guns, but I'd like to see a way, though I know it's impossible, to keep guns away from criminals.

Does this clarify my position?

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2003, 10:25:17 AM »
I see what you are saying. The point I am trying to make is, the more freedom you give up, the more is taken away.

That is why the NRA fights any ban on weapons.(although I don't see the need for 50 guns in the home) That is why pro choice fights any ban on abortion (although I do not believe in partials)

That is why I do not believe in the patriot act (although I believe in security)
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline DmdNexus

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2003, 11:00:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
He just does not matter anymore?


"The second sponsor, the American Constitution Society, is a national organization of law students, professors, lawyers and others that says it seek to counter what it characterizes as the dominant, narrow conservative vision of American law today"

FREAKIN LAWYERS, AND HIPPIE PROFESSORS!!!!


There is enough to question the legality the Bush Administrations practices to cause the Supreme court to revuew the legality of the detainment of 600 people at Gutmo!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/10/scotus.detainees/index.html

Given that these 9, mostly CONSERVATIVE, Justices have decided to review this situation, in my opinion means that Gore is not far off when he also expresses his concern with what the Bush Administration is doing.

"This lawless situation must not continue," Ratner said. "Every imprisoned person should have the right to test the legality of their detention. It is this basic principle that has been denied to our clients."

You conservatives are so freaking blind to your patriotic "kill the terrorists" cause... that you'll believe anything this Adminsitration says...and are willing to deny US citizen's their constitutional rights in order to kill more people.

Thus the following quote is quite appropriate for you neuvo-nazi's.

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities" - Voltaire

Bush: "Iraq has STOCK PILES of WMD" <<<  Absurdity!

Offline DmdNexus

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2003, 11:04:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gadfly
The question is, why would Algore be stupid enough to believe those assumptions.  I don't, and never did.  In fact, I never even heard of most of those until months after the fact, when the democrats really got in a jam and needed something, anything, to use against the Administration.


Those statements paraphase quotes from the Bush administration... litterally hundreds of news briefings, memos, and information coming from the Bush administration justifying and spining the cause the Iraqi war... those didn't come from the Democrats.

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2003, 11:04:56 AM »
I think are are prisoners of war, but I am not well informed on what is going on there.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline DmdNexus

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2003, 11:27:22 AM »
Let's take a little test now. Can the President of the United States, or his agents, take a U.S. citizen into custody, declare him an unlawful enemy combatant, and keep him indefinitely in jail?

The short answer is: the compassionate conservative has already done it, but the law is clear that only a court of law can determine who has POW (lawful combatant) rights and who does not.

Remember, the USA PATRIOT Act authorized the Attorney General to detain any immigrant without charges for seven days. It authorized continued and apparently indefinite detention for renewable periods of six months on the mere say-so of the Attorney General, once charges had been filed - but those charges did not need to have anything to do with terrorism. Indefinite detention without a hearing could occur (and has occurred) on nothing more than a visa violation.

But the PATRIOT Act applies only to immigrants. Why should Americans be concerned?

Now come Hamdi and Padilla. Should we be surprised?

Hamdi was captured in April 2002 Afghanistan, flown to Guantanamo, discovered to be an American citizen and transferred to Norfolk Naval Station Brig. in Virginia, where he remains without access to an attorney or a court of law.


Padilla was taken into custody at Chicago O'Hare airport on May 8, 2002 and flown to New York, where he was detained as a material witness for Grand Jury proceedings, assigned counsel, and set for a hearing date. Prior to the hearing date, he was designated an unlawful enemy combatant by Presidential order, and transferred, without notice to his lawyer, to the U.S. Navy Consolidated Brig in South Carolina where he is held incommunicado and has been denied all access to counsel.  

Thus, two American citizens have now been imprisoned for more than six months without charges.  

The District Court in the Padilla case (the Southern District of New York), ruled that the President has the authority to detain an unlawful enemy combatant, which again jumps the gun. Of course, these courts were only hearing habeas corpus petitions, to decide whether these persons had a right to be heard at all, for status determination or otherwise. Presumably, these courts will now hold hearings to determine the status of these men, and if they are determined to be unlawful enemy combatants not protected as POW's by Geneva III, the government may then ostensibly detain them for the duration of hostilities.

However, while there is no question that the government has a clear obligation to detain those determined to be threats to national security, it has no authority to make such determinations without judicial oversight.7 Indeed, to do so in the face of longstanding treaties (to which we are signatories) that require such oversight is a violation of the Geneva Conventions - and a violation of Geneva is, by federal statute, a war crime.

Yes, a war crime, punishable by fine, imprisonment, or even potentially the death penalty. Check it out: 18 U.S.C. sec. 2441.

Similarly, Bush's Military Tribunals violate Geneva.

Creighton University international law professor Michael J. Kelly writes: "The illegal nature of [President Bush's Military] order only serves to perpetuate a sense of unfairness. As written, this order runs afoul of the Third Geneva Convention"8

Jordan J. Paust, international law professor at University of Houston and former military officer, writes: "In its present form and without appropriate congressional intervention, the Military Order will create military commissions that involve unavoidable violations of international law and raise serious constitutional challenges."9

Judge Evan Wallach, a judge in the United States Court of International Trade, law professor at Brooklyn and New York Law Schools, and a former military officer who fought in the Gulf War, writes that the "failure to accord fair procedural and evidentiary standards in a trial of prisoners of war is a war crime of substantial magnitude."10

"[P]articipants in any United States military tribunal" that follows the standards set forth by the Bush military commissions order, "would be well justified in seeking counsel," says Wallach.

Francis A. Boyle, international law professor at University of Illinois, writes that the Bush military commissions violate two treaties, and that these violations are "a serious war crime." He states that Bush "has incriminated himself under the Third Geneva Convention by signing the order setting up these military commissions," and "he has incriminated himself under the U.S. War Crimes Act of 1996" which makes it "a serious felony for any United States citizen either to violate or order the violation of the Four Geneva Conventions of 1949."11

Is there any policy in the Bush administration's measures? If there is, it is an unlawful one. If there is not, someone needs to take the helm for this reckless crew, for they are endangering the safety of every American citizen and soldier.

If there is any doubt about the methods endorsed by this administration, note that the government has admittedly placed Hamdi and Padilla each in a "tightly controlled environment [in order] to create dependency."12 As the Center for Constitutional Rights said in its amicus brief for Hamdi, the government has "prolonged detention of a potential witness so that he may be interrogated at length in conditions creating psychological dependency."

With this admission, we may as well slide down the slippery slope and codify torture.

Nova Southeastern University professor of international law James Wilets says: "It sounds hyperbolic, but in some respects the United States is, legally speaking, an international outlaw."

-------

In addition to detention camps and those items in footnote one, note that the Department of Defense has plans to use the military in the event of a smallpox outbreak. http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=20021213-041745-9227r.

http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/getcase/4th/case/026895Pv2&exact=1

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2003, 12:07:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes I'm a die hard Republican



Can you be a republican or a democrat without actually voting?
sand

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2003, 12:10:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Creamo
Bush handled 9/11 better than I could have ever hoped, and made my vote in my mind correct.



The decision to attack Afghanistan was so clear, that even you could have effectively acted as president after 911.
sand

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2003, 02:41:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Can you be a republican or a democrat without actually voting?


I donno. Did you not read the rest of that post where I clearly state that I'm not a partisan, not Republican or Democrat...

Read it again. :)


Yes I'm a die hard Republican - thats why I would have voted for Clinton in 2000... (if I chose to vote and he could run for a third term, I dont vote and I wont vote till watermelon changes - see below)

So no you are wrong in this case, I'm no hard partisan. I'm not even partisan really, I just agree on some issues with the right and others with the left and express that - jarringly at times. However at this time the left pisses me off more, just as the right pissed me off when they were actually trying to impeach a president a few years ago, wtf...

But yea I will agree with you 100% it is the ridiculous nature of partisanship I have noticed I this country as I grew up here that turned me off of politics and made voting seem pointless because it seemed they just attacked each other because of different party system.

As for my comment about box cutters, it's sarcasm - but I do feel honestly that we must make some sacrifices compared to how we were before beacuse the world has changed. So far I personally have not seen the evils of this, CNN even in their constant negativity hasnt shown it to me either and even the nuttiest left wing blowhards on this BBS havent come up with the good either unless it's articles from extremly biased and unreasobale sources like the worl socialist website or something of that sort.

I like Bush because of his handling of 911, I like Bush for taking the big picture approach in Iraq and actually risking something for a long term gain and long term view for the mid-east. I hope it works out well. I like that he cut taxes because I'm a business major and I belive and have studied how lower taxes lead to greater growth and prosparity - it worked for Kennedy (who made a massive massive tax cut), it worked for Reagan and it seems to be working for Bush as recent numbers are very positive.

The Democratic candidates all seem weak and disorganized and basically have no ideas except vague procamtions of impending doom. Just think of it this way - Al Gore said we are less safe than before 911. This means that all the hard work, sacrifice and vigilance by millions of Americans in governemt and service and civil life has been worth nothing, in fact he states it has had a negative impact. He is spitting in all their faces and putting down their work, and why is he doing it? Because its an election year and they (and both parties do this) need issues.

Sorry Creamo, I'm not that simple to paint into a corner as some handy stereotype..

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2003, 04:04:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I donno. Did you not read the rest of that post where I clearly state that I'm not a partisan, not Republican or Democrat...

Read it again. :)

[/B]



Of course you're non-partisan. You don't vote.
sand

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2003, 04:54:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
How can you have a link to something you don't see? Take a closer look Rude. If Nixon had this tool there would have been no watergate. He could have done most of it legally.

They don't break down doors, they unlock them when you are not there. You can stick your head in the sand all you want.

So if they take your guns away it is ok, we have police with guns to protect us, so why do we need them?

Creamo is right. The NRA will fight a ban on a person having 100 guns in his house. Why?, because then it will be 50 guns, then 20 guns, then one gun, then no guns.

Can you provide a link to all the WMD? No, but we know they existed.


You're paranoid dood

Offline yowser

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 102
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2003, 05:13:42 PM »
"Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
He just does not matter anymore?"


Judging by this thread and its response....apparently he does.

yowser

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2003, 06:19:16 PM »
Would you guys mind going over all of that again?  I'm not sure I understand.  









:D





Seriously, would you civil libertarians please explain how YOU would beef up security against terrorism WITHOUT abridging civil rights in some way?   Do you seriously suggest that the authorities go to a judge for a warrant every single time they want to monitor someone's e-mail?  Do you have the capacity to conceive of the sheer volume of communications traffic that criscrosses the country each day?  How would YOU monitor the tens of millions of passengers boarding airlines in this country each day if each and every one of them had the right to demand that the authorities obtain a warrant before searching their luggage?  (Seems like they were already doing that before 9/11.)

Do you really think that the entire fabric of our democratic society will come unraveled because of the new security measures?

Come on...tell me how YOU would handle the situation differently.  Be specific.  Tell how you would do it and at the same time safeguard our constitutional liberties.

Thorny problem isn't it.

Shuckins

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4287
Will someone call Al Gore and tell him...
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2003, 09:23:04 PM »
Grun, I never know if anyone is serious or not on this BBS. You can never be sure of whether or not someone's text is their true belief or a joke.

It was simply the proposal that you would say GScholz was equating Bush to Hitler in that quote. In fact, what I read was that he was equating the majority of the American populace to Germany's populace just prior to Hitler becoming chancellor. You must know by now that there are a whole crapload (exact numbers escape me) of people who do not vote, and the ones that do vote - vote their party, who is more popular, or vote based on research.

Basically, what I read in GScholz's statement had nothing to do with Bush being Hitler - but everything to do with today's American populace being complacent enough to allow a Hitler into its leadership. It won't be Bush, he doesn't have the verbal eloquence Hitler had, but if a smooth enough talker came into play in the presidential runnings.....
-SW
« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 09:45:42 PM by AKS\/\/ulfe »