Author Topic: The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003  (Read 8293 times)

Offline Thrawn

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #135 on: November 16, 2003, 04:40:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
And how many crimes are prevented or halted by the criminal fearing or seeing that his victim is armed?


I don't know, tell me.

Offline ravells

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2003, 07:54:00 AM »
Lazs,

My perception is that I am all for ceding certain powers of the individual to government. That is why I vote. For me, that is a function of government. If the US ended up like England and very few people were allowed to have firearms, then it may be the case that there would be fewer firearm deaths (although I recognise that we can argue the statistics about this until the cows come home).

In the UK, and I suspect it is the same as the US, the majority of criminals who are released reoffend. Our jails are full to bursting and as a result sentences are being shortened simply so that there is room for incoming inmates. We are running out of space and money to build more jails.  I simply cannot agree with you that somebody who misuses firearms must be insane.

The old and infirm ought to be able to rely in others to protect them. I do not think that giving the old and infirm guns will solve the problem.

I don't think that England is any more or less civilised than the US - just different. It depends on what you mean by 'civilised'.  Again, it's a lifestyle choice, but I would prefer to run the risk of my house being burgled by theives who were less likely to be armed with guns than to live in a place where burglary still existed and everybody had guns.

The 'Englishman's home is his castle' was an expression that people here used to justify defending his property and people from intruders. Perhaps it should be the 'American's home is his castle'.

It may be that one day it will be legal for more and more people here will choose to carry guns (although I doubt it). The problem as I see it is that once all the guns are out there, the genie is out of the bottle and it is very difficult to put it back.  When we have a 'gun incident' here (for example schoolchildren getting shot) the overwhelming feeling is that guns should be harder to get hold of, not easier.

Ravs

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #137 on: November 17, 2003, 08:14:36 AM »
rav..  I did not say that criminals who use guns are insane.   I said that if a criminal uses a gun in a crime then when he gets out of prison he should have all his rights restored including given his firearm back..  I have no problem with tacking on heavier sentances for gun crimes...  I do not believe in letting violent criminals out of prison because of cost.   We have a "3 strikes law" in many states that works very well.   If they are in prison they can't breed.   If they are executed they can't hurt anyone else ever again.

who do you suggest protect the old and infirm from criminals breaking into their home?  Maybe arm em with cell phones?  I do not wish the british version of your home is your castle where it is your castle until someone breaks into it and then you have the right to run away and leave it to them.

In the case of schools... more guns would be the answer... more guns in the right hands would prevent the cowards from from even thinking of the act... it is a fad that would fade away.   I believe you and I might agree tho that those school shooters are insane?

our burglars are rarely armed... but.. what is armed?  would you rather be beat to death or stabbed or bludgeoned?   I would rather meet force with equal or greater force... just as our police advise.   Do you feel that the law should be... "he who is most physicaly fit deserves to win" ?   Is it even legal to beat a burglar in your country?  I would think that if you harmed him you would be sued... perhaps a lot of bad things could be prevented if everyone were required to put their valuables out on the porch every night before they went to bed?   Don't forget to leave the porch light on... if the burglar stumbles and falls you could be liable.

thrawn... in the U.S. between 3/4 and 3 million crimes per year are prevented by armed citizens.   most do not involve actual shooting.

Offline Thrawn

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #138 on: November 17, 2003, 08:45:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
thrawn... in the U.S. between 3/4 and 3 million crimes per year are prevented by armed citizens.   most do not involve actual shooting.


Thanks lazs.

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2003, 08:53:44 AM »
also.... rav... I don't get it... you say that you can't afford prisons but how can that be?  your taxes are twice what ours are... you should be swimming in money.   You government is benighn and effiecient... heck... the money they save on not providing decent dental care alone should be enough to built thousands of luxury prisons.   If you are trading bad teeth for good prisons then maybe you guys do have the answer after all.
lazs

Offline ravells

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #140 on: November 17, 2003, 10:38:53 AM »
Hi Lasz,

I think that there are many more instances where burglars have successfully sued homeowners in the US than in the UK.

I'm still trying to understand why you think people who have used guns in crime ought to have the right to own a gun the moment they are released from prison on the basis that all their rights ought to be restored...do you think that convicted child molesters ought to be able to work with children on release from prison?

You mentioned:
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In the case of schools... more guns would be the answer... more guns in the right hands
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The more hands you put guns into, the greater the chance some of those hands will be the wrong ones. You only need to get it wrong once and you end up with a lot of deaths.

If insanity means not understanding the consequences of your actions - then I don't necessarily believe that many of the people who shoot children are insane - they know exactly what they are doing.


you said:
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our burglars are rarely armed
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That's a relief, but why do you live under this seige mentality?

You asked about the law on using force in the UK. In the UK the rule is that you are entitled to use 'reasonable force' to defend yourself and your property. What is reasonable depends on the level of threat you are faced with and your perception of them.

you said:
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the money they save on not providing decent dental care alone should be enough to built thousands of luxury prisons
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Don't understand you...what has dental care got to do with prisons?


Cheers

Ravs

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #141 on: November 17, 2003, 02:14:07 PM »
rav... yes... I do believe that if a child molester is allowed to live then he must be ok to work in schools or with kids... otherwise.... why let him out?   personally... I believe that child molesters are incurable and that the only humane thing to do is to put em out of their misery....  to pretend that the government will protect our children from them once they are out is luudicrous.

As I said... I vbelieve that using a weapon... any weapon... in a crime should add to the sentance but once the person is out his rights should be restored.   I am not for having a society where some have more rights than others.

as for schools.... you trust the rteacher to cover your childs body with theirs when the shooting starts but don't trust em with a gun?   seems pretty silly to me.   I don't know how that teachers gun could gert in the wrong hands.

The reason that our burglars are rarely armed is the increased penalties involved... the reason that they don't burglarize and terrorize (like in your country) when people are home is because of the chance of confronting an armed homeowner.   If we werent armed then the burglars (like in your country) would feel free to attack....  As I told thrawn..... I think that I could beat you to death with a baseball bat and take all your stuff... it matters not if this is true.... only that I (and enough  criminals) believe it...  on the other hand... I don't believe my bat is a tgood match for your gun.

lazs

Offline ravells

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #142 on: November 17, 2003, 02:38:36 PM »
Convicted Child molesters: To allow them to work again with children is ludicrous...but I see your point of view.

You said:
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I am not for having a society where some have more rights than others

Sadly we already do - the wealthy have more rights than the poor.

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I don't know how that teachers gun could gert in the wrong hands

All it takes is a moment of carelessness.

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Burglary: The incidence of burglary in the UK whilst people are at home is very small (where do you get your information?)

As you know from basic military tactics the element of surprise is everything.  What I don't like about guns in a civilian environment  is the level of efficiency they have in killing lots of people very quickly. That is far less likely with a more inefficient weapon like a baseball bat where the possibility of overpowering the assailant is better.

----

You still havn't answered my question about dental surgery and prisons.

Cheers

Ravs

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #143 on: November 17, 2003, 02:50:37 PM »
rav... the rich do not have any more "rights" than the poor... not here anyway... in your country you have taken some rights and turned them into privilages such as gun ownership (for example) it is you who are giving the rich more "rights" by making it so only the rich have guns.

england has twice the "hot" (while the owner is home) burglaries as the U.S.    The stat is in "more guns less crime" by John lott.   A very good read by the way.   His stats are so far unrefuted.

as for the teacher?   his gun getting in the wrontg hands?  I will admit the possibility but it is in the realm of being hit by a meteorite... I can think of not one single instance where a concealed carry permit owner allowed someone to get his gun can you find one?   Police have lost their guns (with tragic results) in scuffles but that is a job risk... teachers shouldn't be scuffling with students.   least not enough to lose control of a concealed weapon... even cops don't lose control of concealed weapons.    Chances of a kid bringing a gun to school to cause problems far outweigh any concern over concealed carry.

surprise? firearms?   you are not very savy about guns and criminals right?    

oh... the dental thing..  since your country collects so much money in taxes and spends so little of it on things like roads and dental care.... they should have lots of excess cash to build prisons.
lazs

lazs
« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 02:53:18 PM by lazs2 »

Offline mrblack

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #144 on: November 17, 2003, 03:00:13 PM »
HAPPINESS IS A WARM GUN!!!!

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #145 on: November 17, 2003, 03:02:50 PM »
perhaps not true happiness.... but a decent substitute.  
lazs

Offline ravells

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #146 on: November 17, 2003, 03:05:02 PM »
Lazs...I work in the law...believe me, the rich do have more rights. It's just a fact of life.

I shall see if I can get hold of Lott's book - but I do get suspicious about statistics.

The armed teacher: Very simple. One kid takes a gun to school and waits until teacher has his back to the blackboard. Kills him and gives his equally mad mate the teacher's gun. One of the kids holds the class hostage whilst the other goes to another class and tells the teacher there's been an emergency ... teacher comes to first class and gets a bullet in the head. Viola! Three guns.

Surprise and firearms...I'm not very savvy about guns and criminals...can you please tell me why the theory of surprise is wrong in this case?

The dental thing: - And there I was thinking that you were trying to recycle that old American joke about the English having bad teeth. Looks like I was wrong ;)

Ravs

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #147 on: November 17, 2003, 03:23:27 PM »
rav... the thing about concealed carry is just that... concealed.   the reason that crime drops in states that have enlightened concealed carry laws is that the criminal doesn't know who is armed and who isn't.    It would work the same in schools.   The kid may shoot a teacher but chances are that it would be either the wrong one or not all of em.   What realy would happen is that it would simply make the whole thing about being the big bad goth warrior shooting all the sheep..... well.... a bad idea.   It would simply stop the whole fad.

criminals don't open up on groups of people.... crazies do.    They do it untill someone stops em... allmost allways with a firearm... the sooner that happens the better for all concerned.
lazs

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #148 on: November 17, 2003, 03:26:04 PM »
rav... the thing about concealed carry is just that... concealed.   the reason that crime drops in states that have enlightened concealed carry laws is that the criminal doesn't know who is armed and who isn't.    It would work the same in schools.   The kid may shoot a teacher but chances are that it would be either the wrong one or not all of em.   What realy would happen is that it would simply make the whole thing about being the big bad goth warrior shooting all the sheep..... well.... a bad idea.   It would simply stop the whole fad.

criminals don't open up on groups of people.... crazies do.    They do it untill someone stops em... allmost allways with a firearm... the sooner that happens the better for all concerned.

if you work in the law then you know that the rich do not have more rights than the poor.... only privilages... if rights were strengthened and privilages lessened it would be even better but.... whenever you pass "control" laws you are taking rights and turning them into privilages thus giving the rich the advantage.
lazs