Author Topic: Here kitty kitty kitty  (Read 10920 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2003, 04:56:49 AM »
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I'm sorry, I just do not see a beautiful animal, I see a trained killer.


Not that I wouldn't shoot a cougar near me or mine, but there are a lot more stuffed cougars in the world than people ever killed by cougars....
 
I think that it is interesting that people will be worried about cougars, bears and sharks, and talk it over at the local bar where somebody was killed a month ago in a fight over who's car was better.  

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Offline aztec

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« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2003, 05:01:32 AM »
Rest easy sixpence...right now it's hunting season in Maine and thousands of your Massachusetts brethren are up here riding back and forth in their pickups in an attempt to rid the world of all the nasty beasties.

Offline Sparks

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« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2003, 06:53:48 AM »
So Sixpence - when you look at a Spitfire or Mustang do you see an elegant airplane and engineering great of it's time or do you just see a gun platform for killing people as effieciently as possible - which is what they were by the way.

Yes the Big Cats are all killers - that is part of the wonder about them - they are so well designed for it.  I'm sure that if one jumped on my back and sank it's teeth into the back of my neck I might not be thinking "awwwwww ain't he shweeeeet".

But because a wild animal - any wild animal is dangerous to us ,because thats how it lives, does that give us the right to kill it on every contact???

"..It will eat your kids and ravage your farm....." ehhhh ??  Even me city dweller seriously doubts a big cat will 'ravage your farm' , what, so it will cruise the buildings tearing things down ?  Think thats a bit of popular hysteria creeping in there.

One other point I forgot - from Dune
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If livestock belonging to a local rancher is killed, he tracks the cat with his hounds and kills it. He says he can take me to see fresh tracks any day with a good chance of seeing a live one. He kills several every year.
. So its also alright to actively hunt and kill a natural species predator because of its economic impact ???  Killing livestock is not a direct threat to personal safety. It does however hurt the farmers pocket........   All of the previous discussion was killing for protection and safety - now its ok for economic reasons - how far does this line go???

Sparks

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2003, 07:00:34 AM »
With the livestock killing its all about the money. Plus to get the Unwashed to go along with it they use scare tactics. Oh that mean ol kitty gonna gobble up the little ones,burn your house, and kiss your wife.  Trained Killing machine, lol.  That drunken redneck and his pic is funny. Though of course if I saw one near me in the woods looking at me with that funky smile, Id cap him as well. I wouldnt go out of my way to shoot him or nothing. I also certainly wouldnt feel like a bad arse if I had a pack of dogs and tree'd him then took drunken redneck potshots at him from 10ft away til I killed him like some hunters boast of.
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Offline SLO

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« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2003, 07:49:19 AM »
Mountain lion(Cougar).....Black panther....Jaguar.....all same species.....almost all the same height and weight....and basically show all the same characteristics....they have a HARD life

that 1 in the picture sure looks BIG....and I mean really BIG.....someone musta been feeding this Cat to get so big.

but it still looks PUNY compared to a Siberian Tiger.....

Offline kappa

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« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2003, 08:06:36 AM »
According to Feild and Stream, only 20 human deaths have been linked to mountain lions. Only 20 since the 1920s.... Wonder what the numbers are on the other side of that argument..??

I've been in all types of forest.. I've seen black panthers in north florida.. I've seen bobcats.. black bear..... grizzlys.... elk..... bison.... large deer.... coyotes... fox.... never seen a wolf.... saw a bald eagle catch a fish one day...  redtail hawk catch a rabbit (coulda been a mouse).... wild boar...  wild turkey...... i've dove with sharks..... stingrays..... and even had a remora follow me to the surface once.... out of these sightings, I cant say i've never felt threatened... when the remora followed me up I gave him a poke w/ my knife and he went away. I only felt threatened by the remora because I had seen a small shark not long before that. I dunno how many divers are here, but the accent up is the longest time for me after seeing something that throws you off balance...  

Point is, when seeing some wild creature, 95% of the time whats in your heart is what you will feel.... The panther saw me.. looked right at me..  well, maybe he was looking at the lite I was shinning on him.  Thing is I looked at him as a exotic animal... Not as a target...

Humans always before animals...

Animals feel pain, pleasure, fear, trust, love and everthing inbetween. Empathy people... empathy....

k
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Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2003, 09:24:08 AM »
That cat was killed in Aledo Texas last year, about 6 miles from where my brother-in-law lives.  The cat's presence was well known prior to its death.  It appeared that it had lost its  fear of humans.  As to whether it had been attacking and feeding on livestock, it is my understanding that yes, it had.  

What a beautiful animal.  Its a shame that it had to die.  With our species moving further and further into these animals habitat, this kind of thing will only continue to happen.
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2003, 09:56:27 AM »
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Originally posted by SLO
Mountain lion(Cougar).....Black panther....Jaguar.....all same species.....almost all the same height and weight....and basically show all the same characteristics....they have a HARD life



Not true. The Jaguar native to Arizona, New Mexico,  and Mexico (maybe  ranged to California and Texas) are a different cat and the 3rd largest cat in the world. They are Jaguars and are about 8 feet in length, 250 pounds compaired to the male Cougar at about 150 pounds.

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2003, 10:11:33 AM »
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Originally posted by kappa
According to Feild and Stream, only 20 human deaths have been linked to mountain lions. Only 20 since the 1920s.... Wonder what the numbers are on the other side of that argument..??

I've been in all types of forest.. I've seen black panthers in north florida.. I've seen bobcats.. black bear..... grizzlys.... elk..... bison.... large deer.... coyotes... fox.... never seen a wolf.... saw a bald eagle catch a fish one day...  redtail hawk catch a rabbit (coulda been a mouse).... wild boar...  wild turkey...... i've dove with sharks..... stingrays..... and even had a remora follow me to the surface once.... out of these sightings, I cant say i've never felt threatened... when the remora followed me up I gave him a poke w/ my knife and he went away. I only felt threatened by the remora because I had seen a small shark not long before that. I dunno how many divers are here, but the accent up is the longest time for me after seeing something that throws you off balance...  

Point is, when seeing some wild creature, 95% of the time whats in your heart is what you will feel.... The panther saw me.. looked right at me..  well, maybe he was looking at the lite I was shinning on him.  Thing is I looked at him as a exotic animal... Not as a target...

Humans always before animals...

Animals feel pain, pleasure, fear, trust, love and everthing inbetween. Empathy people... empathy....

k
AoM


1. do those numbers include the us and canada???
2. ive seen at least as many different animals as you...and your right they do throw you off balance (if they didnt those tourist traps would die) and the only thing i felt threatened by was a black bear...it had been eating garbage in town and had completly lost its fear of humans...it had been relocated at least twice so when it was shot i felt no remorse...
3. hmm...even if they do feel that we are carnivores first...and if another carnivore threatens us we will dispose of it...its in our nature and to deny it is to deny being human...

yes the cat would have activly hunted him but since the cat let the hunter see it, it wasnt hunting him...cougars dont let you see them if there hunting you...

Offline Dune

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« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2003, 11:25:36 AM »
Couple of points:

1. I haven't seen anyone post the full story about how that cat was shot.  Did that hunter just see it and blast it as it was running away?  Did he try a warning shot and it approached him?  Did he happen to shoot it in mid-air as it was leaping at his throat?  Dunno.  

2. Cats normally don't mess with people.  However they will kill people.  And the number of attacks has risen in the last few years.  And, as conservation efforts improve and the number of people and cats increase, the number of attacks will continue to increase.

3. Cats (especially in Africa) usually will not become man-eaters unless they have been injured in some way.  Note I said usually.  There are ones that are in perfect health and just realize that the hairless monkeys are far easier to catch than a gazelle.

4. Cats are hunted in the US.  They are not an endangered species.  However, like every other big game animal, the numbers are regulated.

It's not secret that I hunt and I enjoy it.  And if I felt that my life was threatened by a cat of that size, I would kill and sleep very well at night.

Offline myelo

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« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2003, 11:47:31 AM »
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Originally posted by Dune
Cats are hunted in the US.  They are not an endangered species.


Although one sub-species, the Florida panther (Puma concolor coryi), is endangered, with only about 30- 50 left in the wild. They will probaly not survive another 30 years without an extensive management program.
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Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2003, 11:48:45 AM »
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Surely from the way they appear to attack then if you actually see one first then you have probably taken it by surprise and a shot in the air would make it run?? I suppose that is really the bit about is it necessary - basically if you are in the woods and see a Cougar at say 200yds and he sees you at the same time is he definitely going to attack you, might attack you, or run??


the danger isn't to the man who is there at the time.  I've come into contact with them when I didn't have a gun on me.  you just open your coat so you look wider, put your arms up and out, and basicly make yourself look as big as possable and run directly tward it raoring as loud as you can manage.

picturing it now I must've looked funny as hell but I didn't look like prey, the cat ran.  I have no fear of most of the animals in the forest near me, bear and cat will run (unless sick or protecting young).

the point is that a cat isn't just stumbling through the forest, he's aware.  if he's afraid of you you aren't going to see him up close.  when you can just happen upon him then he isn't afraid of you, he knows you are there and doesn't care.  and thats well on the way to taking what he needs from you.

the thing is are you going to be there when he elevates his contact or is it going to be your wife on her morning run, or your kid filling a water bucket in the creek.  

I see sign of cat almost every time I'me in the woods,  as long as they aren't showing it stalking my kids then I don't conscern myself with it.  I've seen tracks within 30-40 yds of our camp and wasn't conscerned, he was just passing through.

a cat letting you 'happen upon him', is a sign, it's telling you he isn't afraid of you and your pressence doesn't trouble him.  that isn't a good thing.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2003, 01:10:50 PM »
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Originally posted by aztec
Rest easy sixpence...right now it's hunting season in Maine and thousands of your Massachusetts brethren are up here riding back and forth in their pickups in an attempt to rid the world of all the nasty beasties.


They will end up shooting each other

So Sixpence - when you look at a Spitfire or Mustang do you see an elegant airplane and engineering great of it's time or do you just see a gun platform for killing people as effieciently as possible - which is what they were by the way.

Yeah right, there is a good analogy. But i'll play it your way. If there is a cougar or mountain lion flying it, then yes, I would look at it the same.
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Offline mrblack

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« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2003, 01:31:24 PM »
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
the cat allowed the hunter to see it, it had lost it's fear of humans and was a threat.

 

 


Oh I see now he was guilty of being seen and therefore should be killed.
thanks for making that clear for me now:rolleyes:

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2003, 04:00:57 PM »
The big cats are, first and foremost, predators.  They do not have an "instinctive" fear of man.  Before we moved to the top of the food chain the largest cats of Africa, especially the leopard, were the deadliest killers of our ancient ancestors.  Fossil records indicate that the leopard killed ancient humans by seizing them from behind, pinning them to the ground, and then inserting their two upper fangs through the eye sockets and into the brain.

After our ancestors grew intelligent enough to develop weapons, the tables were turned.  Our politically incorrect but immensely practical grandsires began to systematically eliminate every dangerous predator they possibly could.  These same predators "learned" to fear man.  This fear persisted until the latter part of the 20th century, when modern man developed conservational ethics, and began to rationalize away the latent threat that these ancient predators pose.  Justification for this reasoning is usually based on statistics which purport to show that, because there have been very few attacks on humans by these animals in the 20th century, they have no natural inclination to attack us.

That is erroneous.  There are two reasons these cats have seldom attacked humans in modern times.  One, efforts to reduce the numbers of these predators during the 19th century were extremely effective.  Two, the hunting of these animals, especially with dogs, has reinforced their "learned" fear of man.  As a result, even when cougars have met people in the wild, they have avoided them.

Modern conservational ethics, grounded largely in faulty science, has drawn all the wrong conclusions from this.  When California halted the hunting of cougars in the late 1980's I believe, the population of these cats began to rebound dramatically.  As a result, a new generation of cats has been produced which, because of reduced danger and increased contact with humans, lost most of its fear of us.  Naturally, attacks on humans, and killings, have become more common.

I do not like to see animals killed needlessly, but more and more of this type of thing is likely to occur.  Urban Americans are going to have to come to grips with the fact that these cats are dangerous, and are likely to become more so if current attitudes do not change.

Regards, Shuckins