Author Topic: Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?  (Read 1210 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?
« on: November 30, 2003, 07:51:09 PM »
Hi, I've been giving this a thought.

 As good as the current CT maps are, such as Fin-Rus maps or Okinawa, Tunisia and etc.. I'm starting to think that they are perhaps still way too large for a CT map.

 I'm not sure if everybody would agree, but I personally think that it's safe to assume that the people of CT has at one point another, reached a certain consensus on how CT strats or objectives should be.

 We have tried most anything possible to influence the "strategic" aspect of CT - implanting 'mission objectives', limiting dar, limiting icons and etc etc. - but the end result seems to suggest that the current CT, one way or another, should be an arena of intense fighter combat with a more significant historical aura.

 I do not mean to say that everybody thinks so. There can be many different opinions. For instance, I personally think that if we had decisively more numerous numbers in CT(around 100~150 regular), we could be able to make it something like a player-organized AH2:TOD. Others, however, may not think the same and have their own way of enjoying the CT.

 However, despite the difference of opinions, a consensus exists on how the CT currently is, and precisely under such conditions, how the CT should be:

* small numbers of people means certain aspects have to be (with deep sorrow, I'm afraid) abandoned or pushed to a degree of less importance..

* small numbers, but enthusiastic regular participators, probably means that the CT experience can be more tightly optimized into a smaller area.

* obviously, with numbers ranging from 30~60 people in prime time, these people will not 'fit in' to a 250x250 miles, 10x10 square area map.

* the small numbers, should mean the current status of CT combat, in a nutshell, can be optimized into many people packed up in a smaller square of area.

 Take the sample of the Fin-Rus maps. From what we see in the clipboard map alone, it is a 250x250 miles, 10x10 square area map, with the western end starting from Stockholm, Sweden, to the eastern end of Velsk, Russia. The southern most point starts from Luga, Russia, and expands north towards Berlevag, Norway.



 This, is a very beautiful map, but it is quite vast. In a one week time-span, the area of use people use in this map, is limited to a 50x50 miles, 2x2 square area of the Gulf of finland. That, is merely 4% of the total map. 96% of the map itself, is never seen, unless people have some reason to do the "Flight Simulator" impression and go flying for themselves offline. Most maps, aren't much different.

 
 What we have seen, that makes people frown, is a handful of people spread along in such a huge area. This is where the "milkrun" accusations start from. Also, the 'combat avoidance' starts along these lines, where each party flies into sectors where there are few enemies present, such as all the Axis fighting in northern sectors and vulching one field, while all the Allied fighting in southern sectors and vulching another field. They accuse each other of being 'milk runners' and 'cherry pickers', when they are doing the same things themselves.

 Also, the strategic conquest is clearly not a goal in the CT, and people frown on the fact that some people bring the same - suicidal pork + land grab MA mentality into the CT.

 Some historical arenas, where ground forces were not of much historical importance, are warped, as GVs are vastly overused, especially in the cases where one side has a superior ground vehicle.


 So what I suggest is this:

1) For the example of Fin-Rus map, the current Fin-Rus map is built with a sort of "MA mentality" - large maps, complete with vehicle spaws and numerous amount of bases. Considering the effort put into the fantastic, large map, not only is it limited in effect, but also inefficient and time consuming for map builders.

2) Therefore, for CT purposes, a map with specific CT mentality should built, not depicting the WHOLE theater, but limited parts of the theater, a specific battleground, where small number of people can participate without any awkwardness, and can be optimized into a small space, without being spread apart.

 For instance, this is what I'm looking at:



 This, is my suggested overview of the entire CT: Fin-Rus area. It is a very small space, 3x3 square area. If the space is smaller, kanttori's "squad defense concept" can be organized and implemented in a much more efficient way even with smaller number of people with different time zones. In this 3x3 area, the Finnish side will be defended by the LLv34 divided into two parts, while the attacking VVS side can be designated into 3GIAP and 191AP.

 Even if kanttori's idea is not implemented, a smaller map has certain advantages:

1) It looks small. People may laugh about it for a while. However, as stated above, if you really come to think of it, only an average of 5~10% area of CT terrain is actually used. Thus, smaller maps have a shorter build time with less time consumption from the map makers.

2) The area is smaller, therefore, much more detail can be put into the map for better immersion. Considering all the buildings, villages, 3D objects that are loaded with the map, that are never seen anyways, a smaller map will have a chance to become more detailed.

3) Smaller aspects, such as GV spawns, maybe bomber air-spawns, even, can be implemented with greater efficiency and optimization. The number of all the spawn points will be limited than before, however, this will mean the area where bombers and GVs spawn, will not be somewhere outside of the main battle.

4) The strats, or capture aspect, can be turned off or severely limited. Since there will be fewer fields on both sides, it will be easier to pork the bases and try a MA style capture. Therefore, this, should be looked into.. and perhaps with a smaller map, the map makers may be able to come up with more clever designs to prevent easy captures(for instance, Fester's implementation of tying towns to VHs, was very clever).

 ...

 So, with this smaller map, the CT will be called "The Gulf of Finland", instead of the whole "Continuation War". The CT, with series of these small maps, may be able to depict a series of actions in accordance with the historical war, even with smaller numbers of people. (Maybe, for instance, if we start a Eastern Front setup, there could be a series of small maps rotating in a 1-week term, starting from outskirts of Poland, evolving into the area near Smolensk, the Battle of Leningrad, the Stalingrad, Kursk, and etc etc.. that would be five maps needed, but the total size of those five maps, would be equal to a one, large map.)

 Anyhow, smaller maps, can't be worse than large ones. A CT needs a CT specific map. Okinawa or FinRus, is not one of them. Simply too large, and too much effort and time gone into waste.

 Smaller maps, more compact area of battle, more people packed into tighter squares, and more detail and depictures put into the terrains for better immersion. That's what I'm getting at.

Offline Dux

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Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2003, 10:01:49 PM »
It would be great if we could actually "turn off" certain bases and make them not only disabled, but invisible... perhaps in the Arena Settings menu. That way you could make the effective play area of the terrain into a virtual smaller map.

All maps, no matter what size, are really 512 maps... it's just that a smaller map only shows a smaller part of the center. All that land is there whether you use it or not.

Like you mentioned, though, the biggest problem we have up front is defining exactly what the CT is supposed to be... it's something different to every CT regular, and has been the subject of heated debate on channel 1.

Define what the CT is supposed to be, and the answers will be very easy to find.

In the meantime, chopping up smaller maps is certainly worth trying.


Here's a question for the masses: is it worth even having strat in the CT?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2003, 10:04:12 PM by Dux »
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Offline brady

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Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2003, 10:30:01 PM »
Strat is worth Having for a number of reasion's, non the least of which is some folks like to just bomb stuff, thought the effect's of strat are turned off in the CT.

 Base capture and all that intailes is a very vital compont in creating a fighting atmosphear, without it the whole areana would suffer.

 Maps are a very time consuming and labor intensive endevor and many (most) of the maps we have in the CT were pourpose built for it, the were either solicitated or built on the maps makers own initative for use in the CT. Their are some maps we rarely use or simply dont use that are not at all CT friendly. Map's like Kanttoris FInland map which is pourpose Built for the CT have some common traits namely their bases are typicaly 25 miles or less apart and they typicaly suport good GV spawns. While some maps are definatly larger than other's they can still offer good game play case in point is this week's map, their have been several great battles that have taken place over the weakend on it. Some folks are simply to lazy to look at the map and find whear the fight is or realy to ask. A way around this would be to creat a much smaller map that forces folks to fight in a box, but this would realy focus the fighting to those who simply wanted to dog fight , and hey the CT is and should be about more than that.


 Another note just what the H!ll is the deal with the milk runner stigmata anyway, a lot of the time folks throw it out their and dont realise a fight was actually happing their, and on the larger maps so what if they take bases, their having fun and it moves the front, just because their not playing the game the way you would dosent mean they are not entitled to have fun on their own and on their own dime.


 In general I dont see a realy good reasion to chop up existing maps, it would be a nice tool to be able to shut off bases and shape the field howeaver on larger map's which in a way is done fron time time by simply adjusting the front so we can see more of the map. ASW's France map has had several set up's on it that have been aranged around difereent areas, in effect creating smaller map's granted the map is deap but this is good, it prevents a reset and provides for a since of battle and acheavement.

 Okinawa has some of the closest and densist airfield concentrations ever, and is imo one of the best maps we have for use in the CT, one that neads to be closly monatored do to the limited number of bases.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2003, 11:00:34 PM by brady »

Offline Easyscor

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Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2003, 04:15:49 AM »
I don’t like the idea of a 3x3 map because I expect more from the CT and I can go to the H2H rooms for that kind of action which costs nothing.

I’m not sure it would be fun in the CT but if you want to experiment with strips of an existing map, you could change the out-of-bounds bases to the neutral country, disable all the aircraft and vehicles, and then destroy the rearm pads making the neutral base capture irrelevant.  You'd also need to turn on the neutral country base WarningFlags to replace the off map arrows that wouldn't be available.  Of course this is a huge amount of work and it wouldn’t be worth it unless you can save the settings tables and reload them when needed.
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Offline tzr

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Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2003, 06:05:04 AM »
What might be cool to try is to have ..say 3-4 bases per side. When one side captures a base, say axis, then another allied base is revield,and a axis is hidden..sorta like a  "flowing front"It would limit Milkrunners and focus the fight yet you could still capture and promote team work..

just a thought

Offline Jester

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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2003, 04:29:37 PM »
Can't say I think much of the 3x3 "Furball Square" map. IMO That is nothing more than an attempt to make everyone fly one way.
If you are going to do that you only need two fields on a map with the runways end to end so you could start "Furballing" as soon as you go wheels up.

Not eveyone likes to do that. Some like to fly bombers, some like vehicles, some like to take bases, some like to fly Historical type fighter missions & some just like to "Furball" endlessly. All pay their $15 a month and should be able to fly like they want to.

I like a full map with lots of differing terrain and targets that I can see and attack during a fight. Kanttori's Fin/Rus maps and ASW's Rhine maps are the best and most historical IMO and should be the guideline for all future maps for the CT.

I would like to see a "Moving Front" so those that like to "Milkrun" would have a direction to work in.

I would like to see strat targets turned back on and enlarged about 4 times in size so it would give the guys who would rather destroy targets than endlessly furball would have something to contribute. This would also cut the "Milkrunning" as well as you would have to diable the strat targets as well before you could take a target.

I would like to see more vehicle based targets and double VH bases.

I would also like to see more AAA around some of the targets on a map. AAA was especially thick around fields and strat targets.
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Offline scJazz

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Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2003, 07:08:09 PM »
Couple of points I'd like to make...

1) Milkrunning the definition: A milk run is the taking of a base while the number of opposing players is zero or close to it. So if your the only 1 on and you capture a base then you are a milkrunner. If there is no one on the opposing country and you capture a base, you are a milkrunner. If you do it when the odds are like 5 to 2, yes, you are probably a milkrunner. On the other hand snatching a base when plenty of people are on, when they aren't looking, isn't milkrunning at all. It is just good planning. They could have defended it and they didn't too bad for them.

2) I totally agree with Jester and Brady on the fact that we do want base capture. The snatching of a base gives people a reason to fight and allows them to focus on goals, planning and strategy. It makes the arena more competitive. How many fights have sprung up on the current map over V160???

3) The current map is pretty darn cool (can't remember its' name) because it has all the things a person could want. Bases and factories to bomb, furball sectors, nice GV spawns for armored fights. Okinawa, BoB, and the Rhine map work nice too. I'd agree with Brady and Jester in general regarding the fact that the maps are layed out well.

4) I still think the maps are too large by a factor of roughly 3 (except Okinawa). In fact the more I think about it the more I consider the Okinawa map to be THE PERFECT CT MAP. I suggested setting a chunk of the fields on a map to the unused country. Then turning their AAA way up, disabling that countries flight, and intentionally screwing up the enabled plane list for that field. This would effectively turn off a section of the map. Brady says that this presents issues with oddly placed AAA guns on some maps. These guns are owned by out of the way bases. Following my plan would cause super-aaa batteries in some spots on a map with this kind of AAA setup. On the other hand these odd AAA guns are owned by a specific field so care could be taken not to set these fields to the Neutral country.

5) Having strat targets and keeping strat disabled is extremely annoying. As with base capture... hey if they want to try and bomb the AAA factory let 'em. I reserve the right to fly up there and blow them away for destroying my AAA or even better waste 'em before they get there. Honestly with the limited numbers in the CT can it really be that bad? How much of a factory could a few people destroy? 100% of one factory? Then another 60 min while they setup and do it to the next? So what! Turn strat on, set factory rebuild time to 1hr, turn auto convoy to like 5 min, player rebuild to 30 min and let 'em knock themselves out. I'd enjoy the chance to do something intelligent like intercept and destroy bombers. I'd like Bomber pilots to do something more intelligent than flying 2K' AGL and fling bombing their ORD at a field.

6) Kweassa's point about combat avoidance is well made. Sometimes with maps so large and the fight so focused, because of numbers. A few players can grab 2 or 3 bases on the other side of the map before anyone notices. There must be a happy medium for the size of the map/field density/totally rediculous Pork n Grab issue.

Anyway there are my thoughts...:aok

Offline brady

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Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2003, 11:15:00 PM »
The AA  isue has to do with how some bases on some maps(fleats to) handel ownership of the Gun's. If switch a base to one country from another often the Guns on that base still think they are infact owned by the original country despite the fact the base is presently owned by another, the only way to tell this is to experance the thrill of being hit by the harder ack setting, so screwy is this that despite repeated atempts in the past to do this (set the odd countrys ack higher) it has met with total disaster at times, so we always set all countrys act to the same leval.

 
 Puting Bases as the odd unplayable country along a long front has proven to be a bad plan in the past they are invarably atacked, and hardness setings are universal. So milk runing is not realy effected by this the bases are stil captuarable and atackable. This results in a set up nightmear whear each individual bases neads to be adreased both in terms of start up unit availabality but in terms of after capture effect. All to no real benifit, if the base in question had been in play it is posable it would of at lest been defended and some reward would of existed for those who took it.


                   
 While I feal the pain of combat avoidance, I gota say well if they are and their having fun so what, it is again their dime and their time.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2003, 03:01:42 AM »
A few points:


On Map Sizes

1) The 3x3 size is ofcourse, adjustable. If it's too small, it can be easily arranged to be 4x4, or 5x5. As long as waste in resources and man power are eliminated, the size can vary as the terrain-builder sees fit.

2) The main issue of relevance, is not how big the map actually is. That's really upto the terrain-builder. But rather, what is important is, how a map may be optimized specifically for CT use. Despite encouragements in variety of actions, as emphasized in the prior post, the attendance of CT is small. An MA sized map, is simply a waste.

3) We have many various maps with excellent quality. However, numerous numbers of them are bugged. Not to mention the notion of creating a new map, means very serious business for the terrain-builder. As it is, they are required(or rather, the terrain-builders and players alike, seem to take it for granted) that they make a large map, equivalent to a regular MA map in size and scale.

4) Building such a map takes immense time and effort, which is most often put into waste. As noted in prior post, 5~10% of the actual map area is ever used. The rest, some 90~95% of the map, is unseen. Has anyone here seen the inner parts of Tunisia? Or the main peninsula of Italy? Or how about the Scottish highlands? Inner sanctums of Germany?

5) The optimization of map sizes, thus, aims to bring down the terrain size to practical levels - just as much as needed. A smaller area of concern, means less chance of bugged strats or features. Debugging process is of course, more simple. Not to mention, that it may encourage dedicated terrain-builders in making more variety of maps in a shorter time span.

6) The time and effort put into building layouts and configurations for uncountable number of airfields, may be shifted to other purposes: trying out new, ingenious, or innovative methods of strat by implementing/creatively applying existing strat features. It is much too demanding to expect a terrain-builder to come up with a innovative feature that works perfectly on a large scale map - however, if the map is smaller, the process of experimentation and adjustments, bug-fixing, and fine tuning of new(creatively applied) features is relatively much easier.



On the purpose of the CT

1) There is no need to define the purpose of the CT. What can only be done, is just observe how it is. Contrary to what some people may believe, I feel strongly that people come to enjoy what the CT can offer - they don't come into a CT with a specific purpose or an agenda on what the CT should be.

 It's not as if some people who enjoy bombing in the CT, entered the arena with specific purpose to use bombers and go bomb stuff in the first place. Those who use bombers and go bomb stuff, have the option to do so currently, thus, if they feel like it, they will do it. However, if the importance of bombers is reduced in the new maps, does it mean that those same people will stop coming to the CT? I seriously doubt it.

2) If there is anything common with the people enjoying CT, it is with the historical feeling and immersion of the arena. The country-specific range of arsenals and vehicles, the beauty of the terrain, the limited number of people, all make what the CT is today. If that point can be successfully retained, a change in strat, or limitation in map sizes, will not discourage and send away enthusiastic CT participants.

3) There is some confusion with the comments on 'milk running' and 'strat turned off' - that naturally leads people to believe that a limited, smaller map, means it will be a H2H style furball map. To be more specific, a smaller map does not necessarily mean that it will be a furball oriented map, nor does 'strat turned off' mean that strat will be totally meaningless(I feel I have misphrased my intent).

4) Current format of strategic play, is greatly limited by the system itself. AH handles its progress of war through capture of bases, so naturally, it is oriented towards such directions. However, that does not necessarily mean the CT strat has to be the same. The existing system, can be augmented, or applied in different manner.

  For instance, to introduce a small concept which I've been idly thinking of: a large city can be arranged to be considered as an 'airfield', without any plane spawns, which acts as a zone base. Capturing this airfield, which is cleverly disguised as a city, will revert the ownership of adjacent strat objects such as refineries or factories to the capturing side.

 However, the "zone of control" this zone base(with the "city facade") offers, will be much smaller than in MA. Maybe a mere 25 mile radius, with one or two strat objects tied to it which directlty influences only a couple of air bases. Effectively, the drive into enemy territory, will follow this path of capturing(or liberating) many cities and towns step by step. The difficulty of the process, can be cleverly designed - such as, no M3 spawns directly into the 'zone field disguised as a city or a town'.. or maybe this 'zone field disguised as a city or a town(FDAC in short)' may display awesome line of defenses with numerous ackfire such as a true city may display.

 Maybe multiple VHs or V bases can be placed around the 'FDAC' in tight squares ranging only 2~3 miles apart with very short rebuild time, representing city defenses. Taking these defensive positions within the city(Field Disguised As City) will take both airpower and ground power. Capture of this FDAC will allow a small advance and a pathway diverging into maybe two or three directions. Maybe into a rural area? Maybe into an industrial area(which effects some other zone)?

 The point is, above example, is merely an idea on how CT strat can be optimized to increase immersion on a smaller scale of map. All of the fore mentioned, are merely applications of current existing strat design. However, how creatively that can be done, brings a humongous change in the overal aura of CT immerssion. The simple 'pork field, drive in troops to capture' mentality, is derived from how strat is designed.
 
 Building a complex strat system by innovative applications of the existing strat system, is practically impossible with a large scale, MA-sized map. Just think about it: the FDAC(Field Disguised As City) concept above, in a large scale map, will require the terrain-builders to place numerous complexly interlaced objects throughout the whole 250x250 mile square area!

 However, smaller maps will offer a chance for the dedicated and skilled terrain-builders to show off some of their techniques, walk-arounds, new applications of the strat system and etc.. in a limited small size of the map - if the Fin-Rus is reduced to about 3x3 or 4x4 sizes, the FDAC system above, may be used in Leningrad area or a couple more cities, and the rest of the bases can follow the 'normal' method of base capture.

 While Nuttz rarely ever produced a finished map, he did offer us with the numerous possibilities on how something good can be designed and made by cleverly using existing stuff. The strat, need not be limited in the way it is. We won't ask the map-makers to provide us with a 512x512 map full of such innovations - we obviously can't ask them to do so. However, we can ask them to make much smallerl map with higher quality of detail and strat design.

 That, in my view, is something worth the name of an "optimized, CT-specific map".

Offline Easyscor

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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2003, 05:17:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
A few points:It's not as if some people who enjoy bombing in the CT, entered the arena with specific purpose to use bombers and go bomb stuff in the first place. Those who use bombers and go bomb stuff, have the option to do so currently, thus, if they feel like it, they will do it. However, if the importance of bombers is reduced in the new maps, does it mean that those same people will stop coming to the CT? I seriously doubt it.
 
Well you missed on that one.  Two squads were formed around the idea of a dedicated CT bomber squad with a sister squad as escort.  I for one don't bother when bombers aren't available in the CT.

Some of your ideas look interesting, and not to be snide but Fester showed the way when you have some map making ideas.  The best way to get the map you want is to start building one and see how it's received.
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Offline brady

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Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2003, 12:14:30 PM »
It should also be noted that at present this is mostly or should be mostly just a dischushion on this since prety much all map making is on hold do to the fact that all maps existing priour to AH2 will nead to be redone to AH2 standards to be used so prety much any new map work at present is a waste of time.


 I will say I fully apricate and salute the hard thinking that has gone into the thinking above I do not think supper small maps are at all a good idea for the CT, aslo it is a know fact that when you try and get folks to have to think to much it tends to put them off, this is why we have a low atandance leval in the CT limited plane set is one reasion another is the shorter Icons and yet another is the fact that many folks dont want to have to look for a fight, the lack of pinpoint dot dar pointing them the way to their target's sends folks to the MA whear they dont have to think to much to get a fight, granted shoving them all into a box would sole some of this but it would hurt more than than it would help, by reducing the posabalitys of Atacking diffenernt areas and forcing the enemy to react , creating new and unknow objectives will likely have little efect on how players interact with them and indead they may well not even do so, as we have sean on other maps,the land grab mentality is what makes the world turn like it or not that is the way it all work's.

Offline Batz

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Maybe we need CT SPECIFIC maps..?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2003, 12:19:41 PM »
CT only maps see tunisia

Most others are developed from scenarios.

128 x 128 is a perfect size for a ct map. 256 x 256 should be a bout max.

512 x 512 is entirely to big. 4 256 x 256 maps can fit in a 512 x 512.

The problem is developing good maps that compliment the current available plane set.