Author Topic: Spitfire in the CT?  (Read 4114 times)

Offline Sabre

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2003, 03:26:49 PM »
Howi and Storch.  Point taken.
Sabre
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Offline brady

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2003, 03:34:27 PM »
Playabality takes precedent for the most part in the CT, sabers set up is an exception not all the set up's are like his, which imo is a good one it is well balanced and offers some nice plane match up's were rarely see.

 Some truly historical match up's would simply not play at all well, and harken back to the early days of the CT whear Historical precedent led the way to creating the set up paramaters, and the CT had like no folks flying in it, particulary during PAC set up's. Realy many CT set up's for given times and areas had in reality almost no opasation in the air form the allies or the axis(depending on the time and place), it is as sabre said above a game, one that boith sides nead be able to have fun with.

 Hince the dictum: "Never sacrafice playabality for historical acuracery " when creating a set up for the CT.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2003, 05:06:01 PM by brady »

Offline Oldman731

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2003, 04:58:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Howitzer
I for one would be more than happy to fly for Axis if they needed guys, if for nothing else than to try to adapt and overcome the allied fighters by using better ACM and flying smarter.  

That's very much appreciated, Howitzer, but you often find that there are quite a few people who don't share that view.  When one side has a clearly-superior fighter, numbers often flock to that side.

- oldman

Offline Arlo

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2003, 05:03:41 PM »
Hehe ... flocks of sheeeeeeep. Mbaaaaaaa. :D

Offline LtMagee

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2003, 06:14:38 PM »
This is what I have seen for the past few nights with this set-up.

Allies keep getting pushed back and get thier bases taken away!
Why? Because all the allies want to do is furball with the Hurrican. If you dont like it, dont turn with them or fight them at all. Cant help ya with the P-47...maybe the Spit should be there.

Unlike the last several maps, I see more allies landing kills this week compared to the last several maps.

BoF week- Bf-110s landed most kill sorties
Finn- axis landed most kill sorties
PTO-N1K2-Js landed most kill sorties
Correct me if I am wrong, I just simply payed attention to the text buffer kill credits.

This map, so far, I see 109F kills about equal with Mossie and P-47 kill sorties. Dont see many Hurricans landing kills in the text buffer. Chasing speedy 190s and 109s in a HUrrican, one tends to waist ammo, what little it has multiple kills dont come easy.

Not a complaint from me, simply an observation

IM TALKING LANDING KILLS THAT APPEAR IN THE TEXT BUFFER!

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2003, 09:11:19 PM »
I think your right Magee.

Axis has been doing just fine in the past few scenarios.  I especially like the Russo-Finn map.  La-5 vs 190 is a sweet fight.


Howitzer I totally agree with your statements.  This is about recreating History.  If it's not a fair fight which I don't think HTC has recreated the planes to actually have "unfair" fights in WWII.  IMO those would be Poland, Holland, Norway, and early Malta til the Hurricanes arrived.  Fights were one side had made a profound leap in technology and the other had not.
Maybe HTC can add a score bonus if you fly for the underdog.

Sabre, I have had some fun fights in your room set.  I appreciate you taking the time to answer.  I disagree with your substituting ac that weren't present however thanks for the time and effort you've put into making the game more fun for all.



Crumpp
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Offline Kweassa

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2003, 09:51:33 PM »
It's a matter of balance, literally, Crumpp. That's why there is so much heated debate about these matters, remember? :)

 Historictiy is one drive(at least, for people like me) in the CT. Facing the challenges of being in an inferior fighter(which unfortunately in most cases, turn out to be Axis planes), against the better fighters, is an interesting experience. Especially when the plane set is limited, the combat experience becomes subtly different from what is expected in MA.

 But the problem is, historic plane sets also bring out historic results - mass slaughter, high casualty rates, and frustrating odds for one of the opposing sides.

 That problem is often amplified by the fact that typical CT conditions regarding attrition, squad operation and military discipline/organization , is non existent. It can be said that the TOD arena suggested in upcoming AH2 is a direct alternative to the CT regarding 'historic engagements' - the 'role playing mentality' is encouraged, in HTs own words.

 Fighters of multiple nationality and type, are rarely engaged in a single battlefield. Some of the historical tactics that worked in real life cannot work in the CT because of this. Let's take the Tunisia map for example - a group of desert-operating Bf109F-4/Trops of the Afrika corps, meet a group of patrolling RAF Hurricanes - when judged that they are in a disadvantage, the Gruppenkommander will order his flight to extend away diving. This tactic obviously, will not work when there are mixed match-ups of P-47s around.

 I'm not suggesting an Axis disadvantage - just stating a loose example. The same thing can happen to Allied - as seen in Okinanwa: the total number of N1K2s used up by the Axis side in the duration of one week, probably exceeds the total number of N1K2s produced historically. Groups of Navy Hellcats or Corsairs are into very nasty odds when they will meet a N1K2 in hordes.

 Thus, balance is suggested to offset possible issues - which are unfortunately, subject to a lot of distrust and misunderstandings. Sometimes it seems overdone, sometimes it seems nonexistent - but the only real way to cope with it is hope the CMs arrange a setup which you can enjoy.

 A little bit of digression, at times like these I wish there was a system in AH which limits the numbers of planes 'present', rather than their absolute numbers of usage. Obviously we cannot seem to expect an attrition of fighters in an environment like CT - numerous fighters are shot down in mere minutes, as opposed to reality.

 If it was possible to limit the numbers of certain planes 'present' - instance, if certain fields can accomodate 'squadron' settings, the problem of balance may not have been so pronounced. For instance, in a setup like Okinawa, there could have been an option to limit plane numbers by type as in something like "20% N1K2s, 80% A6Ms" or "40% F4Us, 60% Hellcats" - which as some of you might recognize, is exactly the way how AH Events operate. However, since this aspect is not welded into the game as a internal system, COs and CMs must look over it to enforce proper ratios of plane types.

 Or, if some form of basic organization would force the gameplay into semi-scripted environment - such as requiring people of certain sides to simply "register/volunteer" inside the game to operate in squad strengths of certain planes, the problems may have been few. However, since that does not exist, in many setups, planes that were rarely seen in action become prevalent(N1K2), planes that were limited in operational area or usage become a popular choice for the masses(Me262s or such 'special' planes), planes that were widely used gets ignored(P-47s usually, and F4Us), planes that offer excellent play quality gets seriously overused(Spitfires), and planes that boasted historically potency are sometimes castrated under such destruction of balance(109s). All of the little bits and problems contribute to the larger problem of 'balance issues'.

 The CT inherently posesses the problems of trying to mix a loose and action paced, fun combat experience with a tight, not fun, organized aspect of military operation(which, is usually what makes up 'historic feeling'). Unless some sort of control is excercised(as one might expect in the military), the collision of balance and history is really impossible to reconcile. We can just hope that some setups come close to what we may want.

 We've entrusted that role to the CMs and staff of CT - if we have clear intention that the CT should be really different from the MA, then I dare say we do not have any rights to complain unless we are willing to let the CM/staff to excercise militaristic control over our butts, as described above, to forcibly depose the problems the CT has.

 In short, the CT will always have problems, and a certain side, or certain people will always feel discontent. But if we don't want to enlist ourselves virtually into the CT and act exactly in the way real pilots under military rule did(which, is the only way that will cure the problem of balance(more various planesets can certainly help, but it will not fundamentally change how CT is)), then we shan't complain - suggest, maybe.

 So the question is, are you ready to follow orders from appointed COs or flight commanders, if you are willing to do away with current 'editorial slants' excercised by CMs?

 What, makes you think you'll do any better, and people will not complain, when you become a CM?

ps) To be fair CT staff, I must point out that to a certain extent, I must agree with 10bears. The increasing excercise of control or 'tweakings', have become more pronounced over time. I sincerely respect you guys like brady, sabre, jarbo et all, and will yield to your every decision without complaint, but the pressure of control is becoming heavier every setup. While your intentions are good, notedly for benefit for all, sometimes it does seem to grow out of hand.

 Might I suggest some breathers? Try the setups the other people suggest in their form - let the people decide themselves if they cannot really handle the imbalance. Or, let go of 'substitutes' and 'limiters' and throw in a setup "exactly the way it was" - no Bf110Cs in BoF, no P-47Ds in Tunisia, yes SpitVs in Tunisia, yes C-hogs in Okinawa etc etc.

 Sometimes it seems the 'agenda' is taking too much of a grip upon you guys :) Let it go! Grab a deep breath and let the people suffer! :D
« Last Edit: December 22, 2003, 09:53:40 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Arlo

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2003, 09:52:02 PM »
What's this "score" thing some people always talk about? :D

Ahhhh, Crumppie .... if only you could see how much I've come to love you since your last post. If only you'd shave your mustache and wear a white dress .. I'd marry you. :D

Hehe ....

Good for you. :aok ;) :D

Offline Arlo

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2003, 09:56:16 PM »
Ahhh ... then there's Kweassa who thinks all things must be artificially balanced or the world will end and can throw up a nice wall of text to prove it which as it drone's on seems less and less certain of it's purpose.

Hail to the players who love a challenge. And pity the one's who chant "balance" out of fear.

 :D

Offline Mister Fork

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2003, 10:36:58 AM »
Arlo et. all, if we let the setup's be dictated by the vocal minority, in Europe for June 1944 we would see Tempests and Spit XIV's versus Bf 109G-10's and Fw 190A-8's. Is that balanced?

How about July 1944 in a PTO? P-51D, F4U-1D, F6F, P-38L, P-47D25/11 vs A6M5 and Ki-61's. Is that balanced?

We often use the ability to add, limit or remove aircraft for balancing gameplay.   History sometimes needs to be sacrificed to make the arena playable for BOTH SIDES.

If we had over 400 historically accurate aircraft for the time periods, then yes, we would be adding every aircraft to make setups historically correct. But we don't have 400 aircraft, we got just over sixty (with almost 40% more allied aircraft).
"Games are meant to be fun and fair but fighting a war is neither." - HiTech

Offline Arlo

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2003, 12:47:03 PM »
Fork et al "balance fanatics"

This ain't chess or bridge.

Here's a real eye-opener:

Each plane in AH is different possessing their own unique strengths and weaknesses. AND opinions of what gives one an advantage over the other vary. AND most players that gravitate to a model do it for one of two reasons ... they either are crazy about that model (be it late or early ... be it slow or fast ... whether it has the "deadliest gun package" or not) OR ... they're looking for a model that makes up for their lack of skill and experience in the game. Quite often it's the latter when dealing with new players that may come over to give things a go (some AH "vets" as well) and that little "balance factor" seems to evade the logic used by most "fanatic balancers."

So don't gimme this "If the CT staff didn't constantly 'balance the field' by picking and choosing plane models that are, in their opinion, an equal and fair fight for all (what a joke) then the sky would fall, the seas would all dry up and the universe would implode."

Most everyone here can actually handle some imbalance in the Combat Theater and have emphatically stated so for some time now. Anyone who can't handle a planeset that isn't "perfectly balanced" ... can't handle numbers fluctuations, differences in skill/experience or any of the other factors that have proven to have less of a direct relation to an "uber" plane being in the setup than you think. Balancing the CT arena like you would a chess board adds nothing to immersion.

The sweetest kills truly are the ones against the "better" planes.

:D

Offline Mister Fork

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2003, 01:30:02 PM »
All opinions are noted everyone.   Feedback and observations are taken into account and we appreciate the community involvement in our setups.
"Games are meant to be fun and fair but fighting a war is neither." - HiTech

Offline rshubert

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Is "Balance" the whole purpose?
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2003, 03:06:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork
Arlo et. all, if we let the setup's be dictated by the vocal minority, in Europe for June 1944 we would see Tempests and Spit XIV's versus Bf 109G-10's and Fw 190A-8's. Is that balanced?

How about July 1944 in a PTO? P-51D, F4U-1D, F6F, P-38L, P-47D25/11 vs A6M5 and Ki-61's. Is that balanced?

We often use the ability to add, limit or remove aircraft for balancing gameplay.   History sometimes needs to be sacrificed to make the arena playable for BOTH SIDES.

If we had over 400 historically accurate aircraft for the time periods, then yes, we would be adding every aircraft to make setups historically correct. But we don't have 400 aircraft, we got just over sixty (with almost 40% more allied aircraft).


Or is there an agenda?

IMO there is an agenda, and brady is the high priest.  Brady prefers axis rides, and wants to win.  Brady has the power to make things the way he wants.  It happens.

WHAT THE F$$K is WRONG with an historical setup?  We get historical setups when the balance favors the axis--spit 1s and hurri 1s vs superior early war axis planes, P40Bs vs A6M5s, the list goes on and on--but not when that balance favors the allies.  What!!?? Allies get F4u-1Ds!!??  Then the axis MUST have N1Ks for "balance".  WE MUST HARDEN THE BASES, and SOFTEN THE CV GROUPS, for "balance".  Umm-hmm.

That is the real issue, as I see it.  Allied flyers get screwed on both sides of the equation.

I spend less and less time flying in the CT based on that, and I am sure the low numbers are affected by the simple fact that nobody with eyes or half a brain can miss the obvious bias of the CT staff.

shubie
« Last Edit: December 23, 2003, 03:09:00 PM by rshubert »

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Is "Balance" the whole purpose?
« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2003, 03:35:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rshubert
That is the real issue, as I see it.  Allied flyers get screwed on both sides of the equation.

Excuse me, but I think that this statement is pathetic.  If the Allied planes were so inferior, why would the Axis typically have the low numbers when you log into the CT?

I haven't seen anyone address Fork's example.  He's right.  Historical matchup was unbalanced in real life, as it would be imbalanced here.

I'm also with the "run it anyway" crowd, if they're willing to live with their convictions.  Play the historical setups.  When you log into the arena, go for the side with the lower numbers.  Check back every 15 minutes, and switch to the side with the lower numbers, if necesssary.

- oldman

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2003, 05:09:54 PM »
Why is there no 109G2?  Why is there a P47? Why no spitfire V?