What is the Deal with all this US stuff?

[Rude]

It's a good thing this is just a silly sim...due to the look and feel of things in this thread, it's no wonder war has been around for such along time.

Rudes Theory? Human Nature....at the core, we got serious problems.

I think the next time the 13th is in the air, we will not shoot at anyone, rather just smile and wave alot to promote kindness and a spirit of cooperation in the arena.

 

[hazed-]

I understand fully that there was an isolationist veiw in America in 1939 and i can understand fully their reasons at the time for wanting to remain out of this war but im sorry as a human being i just dont agree with it.
My point was that in THIS day and age and yes, WITH hindsight i dont agree with those reasons for remaining out of the fight.Perhaps you do?
Whilst we(Britain) begged America for assistance members of my family were being killed by a fascist dictatorate.Moral and humanitarian issues aside? I think not.
You talk as though we Britains had a choice in this war.As if we dragged you into it and you saved our people at the expense of yours but you seem ignorent to the fact that had  Hitler defeated Britain and then gone on to destroy Russia they would have turned on the USA directly after it unless you were willing to form a pact of peace with the Nazis.My family fought them as I think I would have done, as did many Americans who were not prepared to wait for the 'official/legal' response.I suggest you find one of these Americans and tell them they should have waited for a legal document to be drawn up.Why do you think those American pilots in the flying tigers in china fought with such a passion against Japan? I would suggest they did it on more humanitarian reasons than for the thrill or experience of fighting.Someone in power knew it was wrong to wait as did ,thank god, your president.

 This was from the start a bid for world domination and genocide against many races and cultures.Im surprised at your response to what I said I must admit.From where i stand i do understand the 'feeling in America at the time' but I simply cant justify it morally.

Put it this way, if China invaded the US in say,Alaska  I would not wait until they took 4 or 5 states (murdering and enslaving as it went)around it before I would be morally appalled and be willing to help.I agree that Britain did the same thing in the phoney war and agree it was indeed wrong.But we were in no position to stop what was considered an invinsible war machine.That is why we needed the Americans.
I wont go to the o'club with this as ive also said what i need to say on the subject.
If you really want to look at WW2 as the scummy warring Europeans drawing you into another needless conflict then so be it.
I say not only did you save our people but your own as well, we fought side by side for what was morally right.When you act as though we played little or no part in it you draw out our emotions and anger us.I dont see the point.

[Guinness]

Call me weird, but i say perk the heavy bombers, medium perk the medium bombers (including arado) and then dont perk the light bombers, jap ones and stuff.  Might seem strange to some, but it would stop the cases of 1 lanc capturing a field in the MA.  Would also stop them suicide bombing runs on CVs too.  Make them get a real altitude.  We all love flying them big bombers, B17 is my fav plane of all time, but its a way to introduce the less effective bombers.  (wellington or he111)

Just because a plane isnt a super performer in the MA it doesnt mean we shouldnt get it.  We also have scenarios and TOD to fly for    I and like many of you play this game for the love of these WW2 planes.  Immagination is a large part of what makes us play AH, the environment, the atmosphere.

Germanys zerstorers (sp? dont speak German) were a big part of the luftwaffe, id like to see that in there.  (Bf110 pweeease)

Forgive me if im wrong, but wasnt "Dive bomber" a class of plane during the war?  I see fighter/attack, but no true attack/dive bomber planes.  (Ju87 Dauntless a jap dive bomber)

Theres like 2 medium bombers, ju88 and b26, id like to see just 1 brit one (mossie), 1 jap one (...insert plane model/type here of jap med bomber...) a soviet one (...insert plane model/type of Soviet med bomber...) altleast 1 from each country then work on filling the others in.  Just because its a taste of flying for each country during the war.

They are adding new planes so often, these threads will eventually disolve.  And paint schemes will be the topic.  

I like the idea of paint schemes for different air forces.  That works for me.  How about this, P39 aircobra in Soviet paint scheme?

I refuse to get into a conversation on who won the war, its pathetic, nuff said.  Like all 4 members of athletics relay team saying, "no no i won the race".  It wasnt the subject of this thread and shouldnt be continued here.

My facts are probably wrong, and forgive me for being ignorant to japanese and italian, russian etc airforces, i jsut about manage british us and german as it is.

[lazs1]

rude... perhaps you could just film and not fire.   personally.... i like to see the pieces come off.

hazed... grow up.   Britan has a prety good history of aggression against other countries.. should we have "morally" come to their aid?   Things were different then.   It was a much bigger world than it is now.
lazs

[hazed-]

laz you are a moron.
the whole point is looking at history as it was and recognising what we did right/wrong etc.you say the world has changed and that was my point.what was acceptable then isnt today is it? seems to me you fail to see the point at all.


ps im just as fed up with it as you are i just couldnt let dumb comments go.

[lazs1]

sheesh hazed...  you wouldn't wait till china took 4 or five states to join in?   when has anyone taken any states?  What could britan do to help in any case?   I would be grateful for any supplies or brainpower that britan could offer in such a case tho.  

When in WWII was any land on your island taken?   some of your own people felt (and quite late) that hitler was not out for "world domination" and "genocide"..  Hitler never was the boogie man to us that he was to you.   Didn't the Irish (of which we have a huge community in the U.S.) side with Hitler?

You want me to say we were wrong?   That we should have jumped into your war with hitler in 39?  Maybe... if it were today..  On CNN every day to stir up the people... Pictures of little blond british babies splattered all over the bombed out streets of london on the news every night might work but....    Here we had pictures of WWI veterans (what was that war all about anyway? people would ask) being fired on by the government and shots of long soup lines and dust bowls to look at.   Much more interesting for our people.   Kinda takes your mind off of whatever is happening to a bunch of furriners that are allways killing each other anyway.   today, any sentiment could be whipped up by the media... one way or the other.  

I don't believe that germany could have taken on the U.S. even if britan had fallen.  That's all fairy tale "what if" crap.   As for the Brave americans who fought before the U.S. entered the war... Well.... I don't know if they were right or wrong or more or less moral than anyone else but I do know... that they were soldiers.   They were soldiers that were missing out on a darn good shooting match.   something they were, after all, trained for.   some just couldn't stand that.

allso... we lost one hell of a lot of merchant marines and ships keeping ur butt in the goods needed to survive.

I'm not saying your an idiot, just naive and  perhaps ungrateful with a touch of pomposity thrown in.   I will say tho that..... the regimes of the germans and japs in WWII were so evil that I could never be in a "historical" jap or LW squad.   I could fly the planes.... I know about machines they aren't inherently evil, I would fly one from any country but... To join a "staffesucken" and call myself "hupmanfurerknobengoblin" or whatever... is distasteful.   and to be lectured about morality by someone who does is even more distasteful.   especially someone who appears to know so little about my country.

Oh yeah... we need more american planes because many important (to every country) U.S. planes are not yet modeled.  It is just that simple.
lazs

[Nashwan]

allso... we lost one hell of a lot of merchant marines and ships keeping ur butt in the goods needed to survive.

Before US entry into the war the number of ships, tonnage and lives lost to the US merchant fleet was miniscule

[Aaron_G_T]

lazs:

The states in the USA are often fairly new
which is why territory has not technically
been occupied. If Alaska had been a state
in 1942 then technically it would have been
partially occupied by the Japanese as the
Aleutians are part of Alaska.

In 1812 there were at least large incursions
into US states by the British.

In terms of UK territory being occupied
by Germany during WW2 technically this did
not happen. The Germans did occupy the
channel islands, though, but these are
technically part of the Duchy of Normandy,
and owned by the King (at the time) and not
part of the UK.

[Sleeper]

Watjen,

Go and read some history books you ignorant salamander.

Sleeper,

[lazs1]

aaron... you are proving my point.   We didn't ask Britan for help with alaska even tho japan was clearly out for pacific domination and "genocide".  "morality" asside..We fought the axis power that threatened us just as Britan fought the axis power that threatened them.   japan was at least as evil as germany.   Germany declared war on us and we gave it everything we had.   i don't think anyone can say that the U.S. contribution, overall, to winning WWII was not greater than even britans or that the sacrafice in population of the russians was not greater than anyones.

 None of this really matters.  We kept britan alive in WWII and we also used british brainpower and... we used it well.   We took rolls royce's excellent merlin for instance and made it in huge numbers with improvements that mad it possible to do so... Packard Merlins were probably the best example of what could be accomplished with cooperation.

we need more american fighters because they were the most important fighters that are still not modeled.   A spit one, 109e and A6m2 are  variations and should be added but P40's, P39's F4f's etc are all new planes that are very important to early war.
lazs

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by SKurj:
Beaufighter RAAF, RCAF
P40 USSR, CHina, UK, RAAF, USA RNZAF(?)

I dunno how difficult it would be to just add a new paintjob, and give the aircraft a different name so that players could fly an aircraft from their homeland.  Until the planeset can be filled out better.

SKurj

\

Good idea 99.

 Actually the RNZAF flew large numbers of P-40's (K's,E's and N's) in the pacific, equipping 5 Squadrons from '42-43 and destroying 99 Japanese a/c. It was then replaced by the F4U in 1944 where the RNZAF operated 424 F4U-1's in the pacific, losing 17 to enemy action.

Many countries operated a variety of a/c:

eg. the RNZAF flew operationaly: the SBD,TBM,P-40,Catalina,F4U-1A in the pacific alone.
The RAAF: P-40,Spitfire MkVC/MkVIII/MkIX,B-24,Beaufighter,Mossie, Mustang III/IV(P-51C-B/D)etc

I think a lot of problems would be helped by replacing the stars n' bars of a few new a/c and replaced by another nationality.

 Tronsky
 486 Sqn (NZ),"Hiwa hau Maka"

   
   
 

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]

[Aaron_G_T]

lazs:

The UK didn't help out the USA in Alaska
for the following reasons:

1. There was no UK economic interest in
   Alaska itself.
2. It wasn't asked to help.
3. It wasn't in a position to help.

With regard to the US help for the UK

1. The USA did have an economic interest
2. It was asked to help
3. It was in a position to help.

So the situations really aren't comparable.

As to keeping the UK going as has been
pointed out after September 1940 there
was no danger in losing the physical
territory of mainland UK to Germany, although
the usefullness of the UK as a military power
in the medium term was compromised. However
lend lease didn't really get going until the
following year anyway.

Anyway, to reiterate:

1. The USA had legitimate reaasons for
   joining the war in Europe beyond any
   sense of justice, humantarian concerns,
   or treaty obligations (all of which I am
   sure also played a part in the decision
   process since politics is rarely about
   single issues, but the meeting of various
   interests).

2. The USA specified a policy of defeating
   Germany before Japan, although arguably
   the US and UK made a bit of a hash of it
   and it took longer than necessary. The
   physical problems of a war against Japan
   were greater due to the distance between
   the last allied outpost and the homeland.

[hazed-]

I tried to avoid answering on this thread purely because laz FAILED to see my point.
In a typical Americanised type reply , instead of listening to what i was saying, (ie if America was invaded by a foreign aggressor that blatently murdered innocent civilians I would be morally appalled and want to help), he turns it into 'America was never invaded,UK couldnt help us!,
Jesus is laz 5 years old ?

Laz LISTEN,READ what i said, Just as i am ashamed of what my country has done in the past, and just as im proud of some things the UK has done, I remain AWARE of right and wrong.All i was asking was whether on a moral standpoint you thought the US should have got involved earlier and for you to admit that without ALL the nations helping in WW2 things would/could have been very different.
from your replies it seems obvious you took this as some sort of attack on the US.
Do you not realise that when british people learn of such things as American airmen flying combat missions for the British during the period before the US officially joined the war, they are deeply appreciative?
The reason my friend is we are much more aware it seems, that the Nazis were winning.
When on the rare occations my grandparents spoke of the war I realised that they truelly feared the Germans might.We watch those old films with the firm knowledge that we were the better side and we were capable of stopping them.My grandparents had NO such knowledge at the time.They were on an island watching Europe fall and were unsure of their very future.What would you think if you were them in 1940 laz? if you knew the americans could help but were refusing, and to use your words, thought 'europe was a cesspool of inhumanity before WWI and it was still a cesspool after we left in WWI'?
A human being is a human being.I would not want to stand back in any situation and allow others to be murdered if i was able to do something about it.
Laz this isnt supposed to be an attack, I just think you missed my point.Perhaps you understand it better now?

Please in future dont dismiss any countries involvement.Theres nothing worse than a fighter who wants all the laurels for himself.Even a boxer who seemingly fights alone appreciates his coaches help  

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[lazs1]

hmm... but if alaska is a part of the U.S.... but you are right.  we didn't ask.  Why bother?   england had huge econamic interests in the pacific yet their contribution was miniscule compared to ours.... As for humanitarian..  there was no differece in the inhumanity of either the japs or the nazis...  And... We had huge distances to overcome in both cases.   I don't know about there never being a threat of germany invading england... I tend to agree but.. they certainly could have made it tougher without lend lease or U.S. supplies.

But here's the point.   What would you have had us done and at what point?   Keeping in mind that we were not ready for any war and the large distances involved.   I'd say that things worked out about as well as they could have.  

Hey.. I don't begrudge englands foot dragging and miniscule effort late in the war.   If we would have followed englands late war plans we would still be fighting.  I think most euro countries are sure glad that the U.S. was the supreme command and not england.   And so far as "humanity" goes.... Where was all the british help for the russians?   certainly they met your criteria for deserving help and... they were relatively... next door and... they were doing all the fighting and dying.

Look.... send over some more 55 Healeys. AC Bristols and merlin engines... we will remake em right and everyone will be happy doing what they do best.   or.. we could go over there and fix em before you send em like.... jaguar say.
lazs

[lazs1]

hazed... u are the one who dioesn't listen.   You are tied up in a very childish morality.... apparently you expect every U.S. citizen to have looked at the facts (even tho they were mostly unavailable) and demand the army  (all couple thousand of em) do something.... or... maybe everyone just volunteer?   To do what?   March on the coast with you guys carrying broomsticks?   Well... it wouldn't have been quite that bad since we didn't have silly gun control laws and everyone coulda brought their own private gun... No... things worked out how they had to.   The time the U.S. spent gearing up was not wasted.

As for the reverse... If the U.S. were invaded in the 40's.... England wouldn't have helped any more, and certainly a great deal less than we did them.   england was in an even worse spot than us.   Yes.... We would have "appreciated" hazed coming over on a volunteer basis but I'm sure we woulda got plenty of canadians.   They are right next door ya know and they speak american and everything.   Even drive on the correct side of the road in real cars and go to the dentist regularly.  

I'm saying that things worked out about as well as they could have and that by waiting we were able to field an army and material contribution that dwarfed yours when it really mattered.   Thaks for the scientists... thanks for the merlin.  you can keep joe lucas and the 303 tho.

But... we need some of those planes.   I don't care who's insignia is on the side.   I can never see the insignia while I'm fighting anyway.  

So... P40, F4f, P39...  put whatever insignia soothes ya.

oh.. hazed... I recently visited your country and I went to duxford and I drove around (on the frigging left side of the road) for 1200 miles.   I am well aware of your countries appreciation of our effort and how friendly the people are.   I still find your government repressive and anal but the people are great they would make great U.S. citizens (and do) if they were not allowed to vote for about the first ten years or so till they got used to freedom.    That huge effort you see being comemerated at duxford might not have happened if we had gotten in too early.
lazs

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]