Author Topic: Yak-9T....  (Read 2178 times)

Offline Batz

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2003, 07:16:44 PM »
Prove you wrong?

I don't care anything about you. What's to prove other then GScholz is a bit insecure? I didn't quote you or respond to you in anyway. As I said above other then going back and forth with:

"Its true"

"Not its not"

what is there to discuss? I didn't conveniently forget anything. I made it 100% clear when I left the thread what I thought:

Quote
I think I am sticking to this as being "fake".


Nothing posted since then has changed that. But that thread has no bearing on this one. GScholz is trying to deflect attention from his error here with "I may have been wrong here but you were wrong there". I thought it was a friendly discussion but he doesn't seem to take being wrong all that well.

Offline GScholz

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2003, 08:39:03 PM »
Deflect what? I've already conceded this argument. When I know I'm wrong I actually say so (I know it must be hard to understand).
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Batz

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2003, 09:03:07 PM »
Then why did you hijack this thread and bring up a post that is some months old that has nothing to do with the topic?

You and I both know I am right in this opinion as well:

Quote
GScholz is trying to deflect attention from his error here with "I may have been wrong here but you were wrong there".


As for me not admitting when I am wrong that’s pure bs. Even your own quotes from the other thread show that when you presented seemingly quality evidence I conceded you may have been right all along. It wasn't until another discussion on another forum that I returned to my original opinion. I then stated so. Nothing since then has convinced me to change it.

You can play the clown all you want but you brought up the whole mess.

Offline GScholz

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2003, 09:55:58 PM »
Actually you were the one to use the "you were wrong there" tactic.

Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Are you still calling Fritz Franz? ;)



I'm just amazed how you can be so disrespectful towards those people, especially considering you have not provided a single shred of proof that the recording is somehow fake.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Batz

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2003, 10:22:16 PM »
Quote
Actually you were the one to use the "you were wrong there" tactic.


That little winky emoticon mean anything? Also this thread had not reached a conclusion. In fact you replied with your own winky. But it wasn't until after Mr. Gustin replied and you were clearly wrong that you went off about the lanc recording.

Through out that thread and in the thread I linked it is perfectly clear how I arrived at my opinion. That fact you don’t agree is not evidence of anything.

I have made my opinions clear on this forum on what I think of Lancaster’s and their terroristic dehousing policy carried out against civilians. Why you would think I would offer blind respect to those who carried out this pogrom is beyond me.

Offline GScholz

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2003, 10:31:52 PM »
I see. Your "opinion" is colored with your distain for what they did. Sure, I can understand that. I'm no fan of Harris or his methods myself, but I'm not going to stoop down to calling these people liars and accuse them of fraud without any evidence for doing their duty no matter how disdainful that duty may be. End of discussion.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Batz

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2003, 10:46:31 PM »
I have said and will repeat it one more time for you,

Quote
I still don't believe that lanc recording to be 100% authentic


It's up to you how you want to interpret my reply. If it makes you feel better to believe that I am calling them liars so be it. It's completely irrelevant to me.

My reasons are stated with in that thread. Failure to accept that recording as true, or by not agreeing with your opinion on it is not in any way related to how I may feel about those fellows and their wartime activity.

Offline Badboy

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Re: Yak-9T meaning
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2003, 05:50:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams


So we need to find the original 'core references' to the alternative meanings of the 'T', and make a judgment as to the authority of each. I don't offhand know what these are (I am alerting Emmanuel to this thread so he can join in). I might add that just having an authority say 'that is the meaning' doesn't necessarily make it right, either. One book I have is a brilliant description of RAF aircraft gun development in WW2, by someone who was in charge of the programme, but he goes on to talk about the '40mm Aden'. Ouch. Even the best people make mistakes.

So, let's track those prime sources!



I have found an alternative source for the T designation, here is the quote:

Quote
Yak-9T: This Tankovyi (tank) designation was applied to the specialized anti-tank model that entered service early in 1943 with the cockpit moved back some 1 ft 3.75 in (0.40 m) to preserve the center of gravity in the right position despite the introduction of the heavy anti-tank cannon, the fuel capacity
reduced to 95.1 US gal (79.2 Imp gal; 360 liters), a moteur-canon installation of one 20, 23 or 37 mm cannon firing armor-piercing projectiles, and provision for underwing containers of 5.5 lb (2.5 kg) PTAB hollow-charge anti-tank bomblets.

The first Yak-9T flew in December 1942 with an armament of one 37 mm 11P-37 cannon with 30 rounds and two 0.5 in (12.7 mm) UBS machine guns with 100 rounds per gun, and the other production versions had one 20 mm MP-20 and two 0.5 in (12.7 mm) UBS machine guns, or one 23 mm VYa-23 cannon and one 0.5 in (12.7 mm) UBS machine gun, or one 23 mm MP-23-VV cannon and one 0.5 in (12.7 mm) UBS machine gun.

The Yak-9T was built only in modest numbers, and its details where different from those of the Yak-9D included a length of 27 ft 11.5 in (8.52 m) increasing to 28 ft 4.5 in (8.65 m) with the 37 mm cannon, empty weight of 6,063 lb (2750 kg), maximum take-off weight of 6,746 lb (3060 kg), maximum level speed of 320 kt (368.5 mph; 593 km/h) at 9,845 ft (3000 m) declining to 287 kt (330.5 mph; 532 km/h) at sea level, and range of 421 nm (485 miles; 780 km).


This quote was written by Christopher Chant, a well known aviation author and published through the Wings Discovery Channel. Not a primary source, I know, but at least it serves to show how this conflict of opinion may have originated.

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Offline Furball

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2003, 09:19:50 AM »
fair enough! believe what you want! i only joined in because i had been quoted! :D




Round 5, weighing in at a dweeby 110lbs and being 5ft 5"... in the red corner  "I am never wrong" Batz!

And...

In the Blue corner weighing in at a puny 108lbs and being 5ft 6" .... Gunther "Im a stinking luftweenie" Scholtz!

LETS GET IT ON!
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
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Offline Tilt

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2003, 11:07:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
If your info is from "Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War Vol.1, Single-Engined Fighters by Yefim Gordon & Dmitri Khazanov"


I think what is interesting is that such errors can be found in the work of Yefim Gordon & Dmitri Khazanov..........

It is repeated in the book "Yakavlovs piston engined fighters"

I have to admit that my original understanding was the same as GScholz............ that the heavy cannon was originally mounted for A to G stuff and latterly found to have a high "kill per round" average A to A.

I have read many excerpts from Yakevlovs memoirs but never had access to the whole book,,,,,,,,,,,, it would be an interesting read,
Ludere Vincere

Offline GScholz

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2003, 11:52:45 AM »
Furball, that would have been fun ... I'm 6' 5", 215 pounds. :D
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Furball

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2003, 11:56:14 AM »
and im 9' and 300 lbs, and thats just my willy.
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
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Offline GScholz

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Yak-9T....
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2003, 12:06:34 PM »
You're not allowed to use THAT in the ring! ... I hope not!
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Badboy

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Re: Re: Yak-9T meaning
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2003, 08:23:58 PM »
These comments from the book, "Russian Aircraft since 1940" by Jean Alexander




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Offline Emmanuel Gustin

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Yak-7-37 and Yak-9T
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2003, 06:41:32 AM »
The Yak-9T was preceded on the production lines by a small number of Yak-7-37 fighters. The Yak-7-37 was conceived as a heavy fighter, to attack "close air support aircraft, bombers, and ground targets." (Kosminkov) It was a modified Yak-7B. A small series of 22 aircraft was completed, with the more reliable Nudelman-Suranov NS-37, and leading edge slats to improve low-speed handling.

In August '42 these were assigned to the 42nd regiment, commanded by F.I. Shinkarenko. Shinkarenko is quoted as follows by Konstantin Kosminkov (in Le Fana de l'Aviation of October 1994, I translate the French translation of the Russian original to English):

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The 37mm cannon had been intended by the engineers to destroy enemy bombers, and it was more difficult to use it against smaller and more agile fighters. Nevertheless, on the North-Western Front, we only rarely encountered bombers, and we more often escorted ground attack missions or flew cover above ground troops. The gun of the Yak-7B proved to be a very effective and reliable weapon against enemy fighters... At first, when we only had machine guns and 20 mm cannon, we tried to approach enemy aircraft very closely and opened fire from a very short distance, almost point-blank range. With the new cannon we could aim with confidence at a distance of several hundred meters. One or two hits were sufficient to make the fascist fighter explode.


For the Yak-9T Kosminkov cites firing distances of 100 to 400 m against fighters and 500 to 600 m against bombers, with a maximum range of 1000 to 1200 m.

The Yak-7-37 did not enter large-scale production, because the better Yak-9T came along. Production of the Yak-9T began in March 1943. One of the pilots of the type was Shinkarenko, then commander of the 133rd Guards regiment, evidently a satisfied customer:

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The entirety of the personnel of my unit wishes to thank the designers of this new armament (...) Our pilots flying the Yak-9T have downed 49 enemy aircraft in four days of combat, losing only four of our own.


According to Kosminkov (in Le Fana de l'Aviation, December 1994):

Quote
The arrival in substantial numbers on the front of the Yak-9T made a big impression on the Germans and forced them to modify their tactics, especially those of the Fw 190A. The latter had a very reliable air-cooled BMW engine, effective armour and very powerful 20mm cannon. As they were slower and much less manoeuverable than the Yak-1, -7 and -9, their pilots preferred to attack the Yak head-on, because they had better chances to win that way. But the arrival of the Yak-9T with its impressive firepower forced the Germans to quickly abandon head-on attacks against all Yak fighters, because it was very hard to distinguish between those armed with 37mm cannon and the others.


Emmanuel Gustin
« Last Edit: December 31, 2003, 06:50:50 AM by Emmanuel Gustin »