Author Topic: Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..  (Read 1398 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« on: December 26, 2003, 07:42:13 PM »
I've noticed this tendency, that the Allied pilots in the current setup, more or less, don't have a clue on how to fight against Zeros.

 With no disrespect, my guess is that the only experience most Allied pilots in CT have, in fighting against Zeros, is in planes that are more than at least 50mph faster than the A6M at all altitudes.  Now, I know that there are many pilots who are more talented than me on both sides, and they probably never suffer the tactical problem I notice. But however, the rest of the average pilots who make up the Allied forces are grossly inexperienced.

 Please, don't take this as a boast, or chest-thumping. I'm merely, but sincerely, trying to be of help here.

 ........

 The A6M2 is a very capable plane, and it takes a pilot with deadly accurate gunnery skills to dispose of them quickly.

 However, it absolutely sucks in high speed maneuvering - it can tolerate high speed dives, and admittably that ain't much "historic", but it can only go straight forward at those speeds - much less roll or turn.

 If you can't exploit these weaknesses, the A6Ms are an absolute nightmare to fight against between 200~300mph.. and especially if your plane cannot outrun it on a whim.

 ....

 I'm not an expert pilot, but today, I engaged 4x P-40s and 1x Spitfire singlehandedly at 24k. I alone fought all of them right down to 5k, shot four of them down, and one friendly Zero waiting at deck took care of the last enemy fighter.

 Yes, I was lucky, and I had some help from the field ack between 10k to 5k. But the field ack did not kill any of the enemy planes, nor did I run straight towards the base. In fact I never fought directly above the base at all. The fight just happened to cross the limit of ack fire distance. All the ack did was split up the tight formation of five enemy fighters, which gave me a chance to take care of them one by one. There was still plenty of time between 10k and 24k for five planes to take me out.

 As I said, I'm not an exceptional pilot. But I couldn't help but notice how the four P-40s and one Spitfire, just simply assumed that they could manage to enter a real 'dogfight' with me just because they had the numbers advantage. They were clogging the skies up for themselves, criss crossing their own wingmen's flight paths, going in and out in a manner of chaos, and really really disorganized.

 As a pure dogfighter, the A6M2 is probably better than both the Spitfire or the P-40B. But the planes the Allied have in this setup, are still all faster than the A6M2 at most altitudes. The P-40B is at least 10 miles faster than the A6M2 under 23k. The SpitfireMkI, is at least 30 miles faster than the A6M2 at all altitudes.

 The P-40B absolutely sucks in acceleration, and climb, but has very good high speed characteristics. The SpitI sucks in dives, but can turn with a Zero for a limited time, and out accelerates it significantly.

 The advantage the Zero has, is the rate of climb(begins to outclimb SpitI at high alts), maneuverability, and cannons(120 rounds, 60RPG). The Allied planes aren't uber against the Zero, but they certainly ain't no slocuhes.

 
 ....

 Now, the largest problem I see, is that the people don't really know how to exploit the relative advantages and disadvantages against the Zero. Coming in from 25k, making a single pass and going straight home, is not "using the advantage", guys.

 That's just looking for a stalemate. No doubt that certain 'tactic' boasts high survivability, but unfortunately it also boasts low enemy kills. How are you going to kill anything when you run away?

 Now, I'm not saying running away is wrong. I'd do the same thing If I have a Zero behind my tail. But fighters are sent to the skies to fight, and destroy the enemy. You can't do that by just making high speed passes.

 Nor am I saying that you guys should try to grab a Zero by its tail and turn and squirm. I'm talking about cooperation here.

 When I saw those five enemy fighters, the single SpitI was obviously operating by itself, and the rest four P-40s seemed to be operating as a wing.

 But the problem is, cooperative flying doesn't mean "welded wing" tactics. All four of them started the attack in the same angle, same direction, seemingly "following the flight leader."

 The distance between planes was too close, and as they passed behind me, they made the same turn, in a tight group, and came by me again at the same style.

 That ain't cooperative flying. That's "follow the leader". In that kind of flying, if the leader cannot get the target, the rest of the planes also cannot - they coming in from the same angle, remember?

 Not only is it grossly inefficient, but confusing as well, as when the fight becomes even more tight and fast, all four planes try to follow the Zero. What happens is, all four of them gets outturned by the Zero, and all four of them now see the Zero closing behind their six. They panic, and spread into different directions - this is the moment when the mutual covering of wingman tactics ultimately fail, and the planes get shot down one by one.

 Guys, if you see a Zero in the distance, and have at least one plane advantage against it, don't just make a pass and run. Also, don't try to stay close to your wingman. It's not a flying show.

 Spread apart, make a loose formation. Maneuver so that the friendly planes surround the Zero from all directions. Make it so that the Zero never sees all enemy planes in one screen.

 When the Zero is surrounded, don't barge in all at once. Go in turns. Make a high speed pass, but don't just run straight away. What you want to do is try for a shot, and if you miss, go into a gentle turn to coax the Zero to follow you. If you run straight away, you are leaving the immediate vicinity, and cannot help your wingmen if for any reason they need assistance.

 Make a firing pass. If you miss, gently turn and coax the Zero behind you. If the Zero doesn't grab the bait, use the speed to reverse, and get back into attacking position, as other planes start attack passes on the Zero one by one. This is impossible if all planes are grouped up in a tight space.

 The fights in this setup doesn't necessarily be have to boring. Alt advantage is bound to run dry at some point, and also, the higher you come, in the next sortie, the enemy will come higher.

 Try a little more organized, mutually communicating flying - that's probably the only way the P-40 will ever get a Zero without zillion leagues of alt advantage, gangbanging, or vulching.

Offline B17Skull12

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2003, 09:03:43 PM »
any tips for 1 on 1 with zero?
II/JG3 DGS II

Offline Arlo

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2003, 09:29:14 PM »
You can't actually force another pilot to fly to your plane's strengths or his plane's weaknesses. The strengths of the A6M2 are, for the most part, readily apparent to both sides. The strengths of the Spit1 and P-40b less so ... though it appears that both sides have just about got their weaknesses scoped out.

:D

Offline Kweassa

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2003, 09:45:24 PM »
Tip for 1 on 1 with a Zero??

 
 Bring a friend, quick!

 :D

Offline B17Skull12

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2003, 11:53:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Tip for 1 on 1 with a Zero??

 
 Bring a friend, quick!

 :D
that was helpful.  btw shane is my squaddie, so im screwed.:rolleyes:
II/JG3 DGS II

Offline Kweassa

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2003, 12:11:28 AM »
Seriously, there's ain't much one can do if he meets a co-alt Zero 1v1. I really can't blame people choosing to run straight to their home base when they see a co-alt A6M. The P-40B is faster, but 10mph advantage is very small, and considering the horrible climb and acceleration, the speed advantage is almost neutralized.

 More often than not, diving to escape Zeros won't pay off - if the P-40B engages the Zero, fights for a while, and then decides to run. That's because while the P-40B may be able to depart from the Zero in a dive, more often than not in the first ten seconds of the dive he'll find that he's still within gunnery range. Hear a few pings, squirm and jink a little and the distance closes.. pilot panics, pulls some turns, and then finds that the Zero is even closer.

 It's essential to engage at fast speeds in the first place preferably over 300mph. HO passes may pay off in this plane matchup - since while the A6M2 has 2x 20mm cannons, the ballistics of those pseudo-MG-FFs absolutely suck, and the mounted MGs are peashooters.

 I don't speak for all of the Zero pilots, but I can say that experienced Zero pilots at least, will not want to waste 20mms in clandestine HO passes - 120 rounds fired by two.. the ammo diminishes really quickly.  The P-40B has a mix of .50s and .303s, with plenty of rounds to spray, and the plane is tougher than the Zero, too. It's an ideal HO situation, and HO really is a worthy option even by calculated risk.

 Since the P-40Bs cannot salvage energy/speed that has been lost, no matter how fast you come in, attempting to rope a Zero is generally a bad idea.

 The best odds are, as said above, coming in at high speeds, trying a brave HO pass, and then observing what the Zero does. If the Zero immediately turns to follow you, extend(run) straight. If the Zero does not follow you, go into a very gentle turn, make full use of the wide skies, and slowly turn back towards to the Zero in a joust.

 ..

 Damn, come to think of it, the best tactics for the P-40B really are HOing and jousting... :D

 That's why group tactics are needed. The best situation one can think of in group tactics, is when the P-40B and the Zero behind it is at simular speeds, and the distance is about 600~700 yards, with another P-40B slightly higher than that altitude. I know this sounds very obvious and simple, but when you fly as a group, it's not really that easy. There needs to be some amount of discipline on who will engage initially, and who will cover. When a section of two planes engage against a single Zero with "wings welded", both of them are going to die, or at least, one of the P-40 is really gonna die.

Offline B17Skull12

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2003, 12:14:46 AM »
what i would do right now i hope he is stupid enough to follow me into a dive and watch him auger and get proxy
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Offline o0Stream140o

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2003, 12:17:34 AM »
I agree with you  Kweassa,  I think I was the spit that you shot down, earlier in the afternoon.  Honestly in the P-40B, altitudes like 24K the 40 really acts sluggish and doesn't handle.  From what I have been told it wasn't meant for up high like that.  It has trouble at altitudes of 20 and above, so ergo... if you see a A6M2 at that altitude... I think your pretty much screwed if your by yourself.  You have to try to drag him down to a working altitude, and needless to say have to get him below you. Now I am probably an average pilot or lower in CT but.. even if you turn the 40B even one time you cause drag which slows your speed down.  I would think that the roll advantage would have to play into effect.  I took up the spit today because I thought it could handle the turn radius of the A6M2 a little better... guess not...  I guess I will have to read up on some tactics against the A6M2 and the 40 some where.

Offline Squire

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2003, 01:32:16 AM »
I find as many Zero pilots who dont know how to fly their ride as allied pilots who cant fly theirs. They dont use its climb rate, and they get invlolved in low level furballs where they get shot from the flank by an unseen opponent, mitigating its vertical advantages. For that matter, both sides do this all the time in the CT.
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Offline Kweassa

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2003, 02:28:10 AM »
True Squire. I wasn't pointing it out for chest thumping purposes

 But think about it - given the same conditions, in that kind of fighting which planes would really benefit from it the most?

 I certainly wouldn't say the P-40s. In fact, as long as people just promptly give check6 calls the Zeros don't even need to act as a group in that kind of fighting.

 Such tendencies no doubt affect all sides in all setups. Just pointing out that the P-40B vs Zero is probably the most difficult matchup for Allied pilots among all plane matchups in all CT setups - which, in this setup, is very likely to happen often..

 :) I'm just looking forward to fighting more people, instead of having to wait all the time for some high fighters to come down to me.

Offline Squire

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2003, 03:27:51 AM »
Copy that, I agree with your points on fighting the Zero, both sides need to to adapt more and stop baseless assertions of over/under modelling.
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Offline Dennis

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2003, 12:32:14 PM »
Adapting to survive.

Anyone catch the irony with this particular setup?

:D

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Offline LtMagee

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2003, 04:54:12 PM »
Quote
baseless assertions of over/under modelling.


The A6M2 is very overmodeled....it has to be or nobody, not even myself, would fly it.

I flew the A6M3 in WarBirds 2.xx for nearly five years. It was under modeled in acceleration and climb only. It blew up 95% of the time rather than just loosing parts. No pilot wounds...if the pilot was hit, you exploded. It was not fast and it did not do 400 mph in a dive and pull out! Whats so funny is that the HUrrican could eat it alive after two turns. The F4F would hurt you dearly during the first few turns. For you guys that knew VMF214...ask --trip-- and --free--. They were my F4U targets!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2003, 04:58:30 PM by LtMagee »

Offline gear

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Tactical tips for Allied P-40 and SpitI pilots..
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2003, 05:10:20 PM »
just throw a match at it and you'll win:D