Author Topic: How does the P-51 generate lift?  (Read 2305 times)

Offline F4i

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2003, 12:47:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
Thanks.  I found the answer guys, its deflection.  A symmetrical wing is cambered to reduce drag.  Or in the P-51s case, to produce laminar airflow (which didn't really work).


And my ma 'n pa tol me dat it wuz lil flyin' munkees under the plain...  :(

Offline AKIron

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2003, 11:03:33 AM »
Lift is a result solely of the pressure under the wing being higher than that above the wing and the wing is pushed up by the higher pressure. The old adage that nature abhors a vacuum is false.
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Offline mold

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2003, 11:17:27 AM »
That didn't make too much sense AKIron.  Why  does the higher pressure push it up if nature doesn't abhor a vacuum? ;)

Offline Rude

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2003, 11:33:13 AM »
The big thing on the nose turns really fast and just yanks that dood thru the air.

Offline AKIron

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2003, 11:39:59 AM »
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Originally posted by mold
That didn't make too much sense AKIron.  Why  does the higher pressure push it up if nature doesn't abhor a vacuum? ;)


I know you're joking and I'm sure you know this but it's really all about curved space, the thing we call gravity, the thing that "pulls" air to the earth and creates air pressure. If nature abhored a vacuum we wouldn't have so much more of it than anything else and the universe would be filled with evenly distributed matter. And be a much more boring place. :D
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline sonofagun

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2003, 01:10:35 PM »
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Originally posted by AKIron
Lift is a result solely of the pressure under the wing being higher than that above the wing and the wing is pushed up by the higher pressure. The old adage that nature abhors a vacuum is false.


All this time I thought lift was the result of the pressure above the wing being lower than the pressure below the wing.

Duh, just goes to show how much I know.

;)

Offline mold

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2003, 02:08:55 PM »
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Originally posted by AKIron
And be a much more boring place.


Oh I dunno, might be kinda surreal.  Life would be so much easier without the bother of differentiated matter. :D

Offline cpxxx

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2003, 09:20:11 PM »
Wow this is all very confusing.  Let's get back to basic principles.  Airflow over the 'top' (top meaning the low pressure side. The wing can be facing any direction up, down left or right. It's all three dimensional) of a wing is faster with a corresponding drop in pressure. This contributes most of the lift. Suction effect. Angle of attack is important too. The greater the angle of attack the more lift generated until the airflow breaks away at the critical angle and the wing stalls. A symmetrical airfoil depends on angle of attack for generating lift.  That is the Bernoulli principle, crudely put. However there is a big controversy  raging. There are those who state that is the interaction of the airflow as it meets the trailing edge of the wing which imparts thrust to the wing which translates into lift. Battle lines are drawn. It's funny here we are a hundred years later and we are still arguing just how wings work.

Offline mold

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2003, 09:45:38 PM »
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Airflow over the 'top' (top meaning the low pressure side. The wing can be facing any direction up, down left or right. It's all three dimensional) of a wing is faster with a corresponding drop in pressure. This contributes most of the lift. Suction effect.


Actually, NASA recently did a study where they measured air speeds above and below a wing using dust particles...they found that the dust going over the top trailed the dust going along the bottom by the difference in surface lengths, i.e. the air on top was not going appreciably faster.  Anyone remember that study?  Oops.......damn, whose gonna clean up all these jets? :D

Offline cpxxx

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2003, 10:52:06 PM »
Exactly Mold, One hundred years later and we still don't know how them airplanes stay up in the air for sure:( :confused:

Offline SunTracker

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2003, 03:03:40 AM »
Good thing air isn't made out of dust particles!

Offline Starbird

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2003, 05:13:13 AM »
I found this  page to be helpful.

Chapter 3 talks about airfoils.

Offline mold

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2003, 07:19:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
Exactly Mold, One hundred years later and we still don't know how them airplanes stay up in the air for sure:( :confused:


Sure we do.  ;)  It's really simple at the most basic level.  Take a piece of cardboard and hold it at an angle like a wing, and move it through the air.  That makes a downward breeze.  How does it do that?  By deflecting or pushing the air down.  The air hits the board and is forced along the angled side, which means it is going down.  A wing works the same way.

Ask yourself--why is the pressure lower on the top side?  The only way to create a pressure difference (without heating or cooling or helium balloons) is to take some of the air above and shove it below.  When you take air from one place and put it in another, you get a pressure difference.  The laws of fluid dynamics, including Bernoulli's Law, are derived from Newton's equations of motion.

Suntracker-- the dust particles follow the air particles, and there's no reason to think that they don't travel at the same speed. ;)

Offline Zanth

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2003, 12:16:23 PM »

Offline mold

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How does the P-51 generate lift?
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2003, 01:42:28 PM »
One thing to keep in mind about Bernoulli's Law.  It is an application of the law of energy conservation.  As such, it can be misapplied.  In particular, it can be misapplied if energy is added or removed from the system in question.

Try this experiment.  Take a piece of paper and hold it horizontally in front of your mouth, hanging down.  Blow across the top of it--you will see it flutter up.  Now blow across the bottom of it--and it will still flutter up.  Why doesn't it flutter down?  Now hold it vertically downward and blow across the top of it--it doesn't move at all.  Why not?  Where is the Bernoulli effect?

The answer to this question is that the increased kinetic energy from the higher air velocity does not need to be compensated by a drop in potential energy (lowered pressure), because you are adding energy to the system by blowing on it.  So the pressure stays the same, and the speed increases.  Energy is not conserved, so Bernoulli doesn't work.

Now consider a venturi, such as can be found in a carburetor or a spray bottle for household cleaners.  These devices do not work without a venturi.  A venturi is a double-ended funnel that squeezes the air and then releases it.  Clearly the Bernoulli effect is what makes these devices work.  How?  The moving air itself is not enough, because again the increased velocity is caused by energy added to the system.  But a venturi, now that is something different.  The venturi funnel is able to change the velocity of the air without changing the energy of the air.  Since the force of the funnel walls is applied perpendicular to the airflow, no energy is added that way.  And since the air in question is incompressible, it must travel faster down the narrow venturi throat.  This increased kinetic energy must come from somewhere, and in fact it comes from the potential pressure energy.  So pressure drops.  Here is a real example of the Bernoulli effect at work.