Time to rethink

[Pepe]

Just back in the tower, after a 40 minutes climb in Ta152 to catch a 38k B-17.

Took my time (long and precious time) to set an attack. Grabbed 40k. Put the sun on my back. Dived out of the sun, and that 38k B-17 instead of having all the crew plain frozen, started firing at me. Never got closer to 400yds, even with a hi 2-8 pass. That zillion turbolasers made the trick. Blew the Ta. But blew my fun for the game in the process.

AH has a lot of good points, but this particular one is beyond any explanation. I am particularly frustrated. I can understand the "okay, let's give them some mean of defense against those evil fighters, who would otherwise ruin a meritful long time to climb"...but what about the long time of a lone fiter to climb off-orbit?

In RL a single buff was dead meat for a lone fighter. Here it is quite the opposite.

So, I am taking a time out of AH. Loved the game, love the community, but this particular issue has been the straw on the camel's back. I will probably be back when 1.07 is out. Since then, have a good time all. It's been an honour sharing my free time (and my sleep time) with all of you.

Cheers,

Pepe (still on fumes)  

[Yeager]

Its a tough nut to crack thats fer sure.

I am hopeful that HT eventually revisits the myriad issues involved with multi-crewed and gunned machines and can find a better more equitable solution.

The only other comment I would make is that when I attack B17s I always get killed and when Im in a B17 I always get killed.  Either way is a squeak and I just usually let it go at that.

Yeager

[Vulcan]

Buffs aren't hard to kill... really. But 38k is totally BS in my books. I remember seeing LW reports that the only buff they ever saw over 30k (with bombs) were Mossies. Plus theres all the associated 'technical issues' (frozen nads!).

The best attack I've found is come vertical down, there is the least concentration of fire on average for the most lethal attacking option. IE, on the 17 on one gunner can track you. On the Lanc put everything into the cockpit... kills em real fast.

Currently I'm:
14 for 0 against Lancs,
16 for 2 against 17s,
5 for 0 against B26s,
3 for 0 against AR234s,
1 for 0 against JU88s,
and scarely 5 for 1 against TBMs (whoopee Bessy!)

That makes 20% of my kills (in tiffie) come from buffs, and 2% of deaths are caused by them.

So IMHO the buffs are ok cept for the silly 38k crap.

[Bodhi]

Not to be a jerk, but buffs are not as easy as you think to kill.  And one of the toughest happens to be the B-17.  Against one fighter, it could hold its own, depending on how the fighter attacked.  It's nickname, "flying fortress" was given to it by a reporter who flew in a mission during the war and witnessed it's awesome defensive firepower.  

I can understand your frustration, it is a squeak to climb out to that alt and whack at something.  38k, is a tough alt for that aircraft especially considering it's electrical systems were prone to failure owing to the severe cold at that altitude.

It is a tough line here to tow, what do you do?  One party has to suffer, be it the fighters, or the buffs.  But I sympathise with yas, as I do with the buff pilot who spends 45 mins to position over the field only to have a one hit wonder end it all for him... frustrating both ways.

[whels1]

they werent such a fortress without escorts, they were lambs to slaughter. 8th airforce almost halt to day bombing due to no escorts for the 17s, and they were losing alot per mission.

 

Originally posted by Bodhi:
Not to be a jerk, but buffs are not as easy as you think to kill.  And one of the toughest happens to be the B-17.  Against one fighter, it could hold its own, depending on how the fighter attacked.  It's nickname, "flying fortress" was given to it by a reporter who flew in a mission during the war and witnessed it's awesome defensive firepower.  

I can understand your frustration, it is a squeak to climb out to that alt and whack at something.  38k, is a tough alt for that aircraft especially considering it's electrical systems were prone to failure owing to the severe cold at that altitude.

It is a tough line here to tow, what do you do?  One party has to suffer, be it the fighters, or the buffs.  But I sympathise with yas, as I do with the buff pilot who spends 45 mins to position over the field only to have a one hit wonder end it all for him... frustrating both ways.

[Vulcan]

Hmmm Bodhi... awesome defensive firepower doesn't make up for half-frozen gunners who have trouble leading fighters which they usually don't see til the fighter starts firing.

B17s were annihilated in daylight raids, and on their own were easy prey. Look at the LW guncam footage of 17s caught alone. Look at the LW aces that scored highly against buffs.

Doesn't matter how many big guns you've got, you've still got to put the bullets on the target, and thats where things came apart in R/L. Its much easier for 1 man, in a small figher, to hit a big arse slow buff.

[fd ski]

True that B17 wasn't no fighter hunter, but making a claim that it was "dead meat" is ludicrus. Please show me a historical situation where LW ended a day with 1 kill per sortied fighter against ANY bombers, much less B17s.

There are number of examples where Ju88s, He 111, B25 and other assorted bombers ran into overwhealming fighter opposition and yet in most cases, most of them made it out alive. Are guns too strong ? Yes, prabably are. But if you ever flew a Buff online in WB or AH you would understand why. It took you how long to get to 30k in that 152 ? 10 minutes ? It took him prabably in the range of 30 minutes to make it up there. And you want him to die without a shot at survival cause you were smart enough to find him ? Or he was dumb enough to roll in buff to begin with ?

Buffing in sims is dead, it has long been. Few dieharsd are still at it, but as HS proved, they are few and inbetween, simply because it's a waste of time in 90% of cases.

I say make buffs 10 times stronger to damage. Let's see you folks pour whole ammo load into a 17 and while about it afterwards...
 

Something wonderful is about to happend.. and i know what  


------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[Geeb]

did a test & a b17 cannot go to 38k???? ran from 18 to tl hq 75% fuel droped eggs & still could not get to 38 by the time i reached 48 & ran outa gas.

[Nomde]

IMHO,
I've had to change tactics against the different bombers. The fortress is one I generally do not try to go 1 vs 1 unless I have a good E advantage. In other words, adjust your tactics to the HT models and try not to use real life stats, they don't compare.

Nomde
http://www.jump.net/~cs3" TARGET=_blank>63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"

 
"God loves the 56th cause we keep Heaven filled"

[MANDOBLE]

Actual stats:
1 - 0 against Ar234s
12 - 2 against B26s
12 - 0 against B17s
5 - 1 against JU88s
13 - 0 against Lancs
9 - 1 against TBMs

And yes, buffs are definitively HARD to kill without getting killed (or serverely damaged) you too, unless you spend a lot of your precious time to set up the attack.

That's the point, you can kill them. But those kills are not worth the time needed.

Pepe, forget the buffs and dont leave, you still have a zillion of Spits to play with.

[Pepe]

Heheheh, in no way I'm leaving. I still LOVE this game and this community. Only that I was showing rather alarming signs of wear&tear  . I'll just take a break, and, providing 1.07 is just showing his ear, It's a good landmark for the comeback. I am not cancelling my account either.

This point is a good example of how things were starting to get under my skin. I do not like whiners, and this post is one. When I can't refrain myself about posting like this, It's time to take a break, before it gets worse....just wondering If I will be strong enough to stick to my word and won't show before 1.07 does  

<S> to all

Pepe

[Sandman_SBM]

 

Originally posted by Geeb:
did a test & a b17 cannot go to 38k???? ran from 18 to tl hq 75% fuel droped eggs & still could not get to 38 by the time i reached 48 & ran outa gas.

Geeb, I've made it to 35K on 50% fuel and still had enough fuel left to fly around long enough to hit three bases. Were your flaps up?

------------------
cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs
The SBM's are hiring!

[DB603]

S!

 About buffs...My suggestion is to remove enemy icons once and for all from buff guns and show only friendly ones.Makes the buffer harder to hit the plane at longer ranges,since no LTD(Laser Target Designator)  And about toughness of buffs..Those Sturmbocks(190's) ripped them apart with only a few hits of 20/30mm fire.And the tail was their first target(kill the tailend charlie).After that the buff was dead meat since IRL the ball turret couldn't fire through the fuselage upwards   Enuf of this...Some kind of better balance is needed for buff guns and thier durability.

------------------
DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34

[This message has been edited by DB603 (edited 05-24-2001).]

[DamnedATC]

The B17 should be capped on altitude in the 30-32k(max). That would more closely follow the flight model.

ATC

[Degas]

Every enemy in the main arena has shot me down in a buff.  I spend 30 minutes on the average getting up in either a 17 or a Lanc, just to get to the target and try to get bombs away.  I've never been above 20K in a buff...ever.

On a good mission, I die after having accomplished the bomb run, and hitting my targets.  On an average mission, I may get a few eggs out.  Any run into a defended target sees me shot down to no avail.

Pepe, no offense, mano, but I'm unable to sympathize that you wasted 40 (???) minutes and 70 perk points and got shot down.

Like I said, I fly low in bombers.  But I completely sympathize with the guys who take them into the stratosphere.  We've all seen the really new players in buffs for the first few times, asking for escort.  Eventually, they just give up asking and start trying to climb to some kind of altitude where they can survive alone.

I guess I'm dumb...I don't care about survival.  All I care about is getting bombs on target before I die.  I have no idea how to look for scores, but if anyone wants to look at mine, I'll bet it will show that I RTB in a buff in less than 5% of my missions.

Pepe, dammit, you'll be missed.  But as a matter of fact, if you nerf the bombers even more (they already reduced the damage mod on their guns), this game will become unenjoyable for the few people still willing to fly bombers.  

Maybe that's what the majority want.  Get rid of the bombers completely.  LOL, get rid of everything but fighters seems to be the direction the game is going.  Most of the changes I see in 1.07 are concessions to the fighter simmers.

My opinion is moot, at any rate.  When they implement those changes, I'll be heading for greener pastures...and the Ardennes Forest  

[This message has been edited by Degas (edited 05-24-2001).]