Author Topic: "Spirit" of Mars landed and is A.O.K (Read 2275 times)

Dowding · « **Reply #45 on:** January 06, 2004, 09:32:35 AM »

Mars is far from worthless - it is not the moon - it's thought to contain lots of usuable mineral deposits. The water locked in aquifers and at the pole would be very valuable too.

But the inventions and spin-offs from space exploration pale into insignificance beside the developments spawned from dedicated research through applied science. But if spin-offs are the yardstick, I'm willing to bet there are more from military research compared to those from the zero-g jollies called space 'exploration'.

I hated astronomy and astrophysics. I think that's why I have such a jaded view of it all.

Otto · « **Reply #46 on:** January 06, 2004, 10:20:26 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding

Space exploration is an expensive diversion that will only ever benefit multi-national resource exploitation corporations and the ultra-richplanet.

That all well and good. But, if we could just get it to exploit the Third World, oppress minorities we'd have a National Treasure.

Mini D · « **Reply #47 on:** January 06, 2004, 10:27:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
and spin-offs from space exploration pale into insignificance beside the developments spawned from dedicated research through applied science. But if spin-offs are the yardstick, I'm willing to bet there are more from military research compared to those from the zero-g jollies called space 'exploration'.

The fact that you have to put NASA up against "applied science" speaks volumes for just how much they have developed. I'd venture to say that there aren't many single organizations that have come up with such a wide array of innovative ideas in the last century.

Space exploration is exactly that... exploration. It's a fundamental desire for mankind to want to learn more, see more and do more than their predecessors. It's also pretty normal to have portions of that society that fail to understand why that is.

MiniD

midnight Target · « **Reply #48 on:** January 06, 2004, 11:30:45 AM »

I think we need to spend much more on NASA. Another bonus to space exploration is the necessity for cooperation among the developed countries of the world as we go farther and farther.

Monk · « **Reply #49 on:** January 06, 2004, 11:33:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Halo
Mars? Big deal. The real challenge for news media will be how they report probes heading for Uranus.

Shi........ not my anus.

miko2d · « **Reply #50 on:** January 06, 2004, 12:28:29 PM »

AKIron: My wife had the audacity to ask me what the goal is with this Mars mission (as well as space exploration in general I believe she was thinking). I had to think on that one a bit. I don't think she really understands the "explorer spirit".

"Explorer spirit" is when a person or a group of people personally and voluntrarily donate their time, money and effort to some kind of exploration.

When a bunch of big-government bureaucrats use exploration to justify their salaries forcefully extracted from subjects, it may be avarice or arrogance but hardly and "explorer spirit".

Accusing NASA of "explorer spirit" is as false as accusing the government of being "fond of murder". They are not really in it because they like to kill people - it's only a pretext to gain more power and wealth.

Dowding: Space exploration is an expensive diversion that will only ever benefit multi-national resource exploitation corporations and the ultra-rich...

Right - and not because of the results achieved but because of wealth redistribution involved in the process.

GRUNHERZ: I disagree dowding, we must keep exploring and expanding. I imagine the same could have been said when Columbus was petioning funds for his voyage..

What was the result? The actual profitable for the society use of the newly-discovered continent did not start for a few centuries.
The only product that it was cost-efficient to bring from America with the level of technology that existed then was gold and silver - which ruined the Spanish economy by indicing inflation.
The discovery and exploitation of America a few hundred years later - when the european society and technology developed further - would have likely been less brutal, wastefull and more productive.

There is always an optimal return on limited amount of resources. If Mars exploration going on now was expected to bring fruits in 2050, starting it ten years from now would still have brough the same fruits by 2050 at much lower cost.

Dowding: exploration pale into insignificance beside the developments spawned from dedicated research through applied science.

Exactly - just take a look at the HHMI (Howard Hughes Medical Institute, $11 billion endowment as of 2002). Give a few hundred million a year to a few hundreds selected scientists and let them work on whatever they think interesting - with no paperwork required to justify grants, etc. Take Bell Labs, IBM, Xerox research centers and others.
The stories about "spin-offs" are mostly lies.

miko

AKIron · « **Reply #51 on:** January 06, 2004, 12:44:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
AKIron: My wife had the audacity to ask me what the goal is with this Mars mission (as well as space exploration in general I believe she was thinking). I had to think on that one a bit. I don't think she really understands the "explorer spirit".

"Explorer spirit" is when a person or a group of people personally and voluntrarily donate their time, money and effort to some kind of exploration.

When a bunch of big-government bureaucrats use exploration to justify their salaries forcefully extracted from subjects, it may be avarice or arrogance but hardly and "explorer spirit".

Accusing NASA of "explorer spirit" is as false as accusing the government of being "fond of murder". They are not really in it because they like to kill people - it's only a pretext to gain more power and wealth.

miko

I guess it's difficult for you understand about national pride. It even goes beyond that, pride in human accomplishment. Certainly only a very few men have ever physically walked on the moon and none have set foot on Mars. However, if you didn't feel the excitement and gain a sense of achievement when Neil Armstrong jumped off that last step then you probably have none of that "explorer spirit" I mentioned.

If you're not interested in seeing what the surface of Mars actually looks like and what it's made of and wonder if there is or ever was life there then you just don't share that insatiable curosity that lives in the heart of an explorer.

Maniac · « **Reply #52 on:** January 06, 2004, 12:48:14 PM »

~~AKIron~~

miko2d · « **Reply #53 on:** January 06, 2004, 12:51:43 PM »

AKIron: I guess it's difficult for you understand about national pride... you just don't share that insatiable curosity that lives in the heart of an explorer

Oh, typical ad hominem attack based on totally bogus premises.
Every single word here is a fabrication of a closed-minded prejudiced person.

Why do you assume I have to only experience the national pride for exactly the same events that you do?

Why do you think my disagreement with NASA means that I am not supportive of search for knowlege in general?

Probably because you are so limited in your mind that you have no ideas unless they were put into your head by your government.

Guess what - many of us are not like that and we see plenty of venues for the advancement of human knowlege and spirit besides the state-mandated ones.

miko

Rude · « **Reply #54 on:** January 06, 2004, 01:02:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
Why was your wife audacious in asking that question? Was there some risk attached with questioning the logic of the endeavour?

Space exploration is an expensive diversion that will only ever benefit multi-national resource exploitation corporations and the ultra-rich, despite the fact its foundations are being paid for out of the public purse. All claims of medical breakthroughs through little forays into space (as justification) are shown for what they are, if you compare terrestrial progress with its astro equivalent.

Our trains suck and thousands freeze to death on our streets each winter, but at least we can send a failed probe to another planet. Yay.

Your heart is bleeding again Dowding.

Rude · « **Reply #55 on:** January 06, 2004, 01:07:58 PM »

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The stories about "spin-offs" are mostly lies.

Which one's are lies Miko?

Skuzzy · « **Reply #56 on:** January 06, 2004, 01:40:32 PM »

miko2d says: "Explorer spirit" is when a person or a group of people personally and voluntrarily donate their time, money and effort to some kind of exploration.

When a bunch of big-government bureaucrats use exploration to justify their salaries forcefully extracted from subjects, it may be avarice or arrogance but hardly and "explorer spirit".

Accusing NASA of "explorer spirit" is as false as accusing the government of being "fond of murder". They are not really in it because they like to kill people - it's only a pretext to gain more power and wealth.
------
miko2d then states: Oh, typical ad hominem attack based on totally bogus premises.
Every single word here is a fabrication of a closed-minded prejudiced person.

Before you start calling some close-minded and prejudiced, you might want to look in the mirror. You have never worked at NASA, so you have no clue what it is like for them to achieve what they just did.
Pull the political stick out of your eye and take a closer look at the human endeavor before jumping on anyone about the motivations. Particularly when you have no first hand knowledge of what is actually driving them.

Curval · « **Reply #57 on:** January 06, 2004, 01:44:57 PM »

Miko....what if they find a cheap clean alternative to fossil fuels on one of the planets?

Just saying............

miko2d · « **Reply #58 on:** January 06, 2004, 02:13:35 PM »

Rude: Which one's are lies Miko?

Teflon? Computer? Airplane?

Even those that were developed in the course of military research would have been discovered soner or later and the wasted resources would have contributed to still more research that was delayed.

Skuzzy: You have never worked at NASA, so you have no clue what it is like for them to achieve what they just did.

No. I do not need to rely on the government's coercion to make people pay my salary for doing something they not necessarily want.

Pull the political stick out of your eye and take a closer look at the human endeavor

"Political" means using government's power of coercion to extort resurces for the causes you favor.
So in that case you are political, not me. I am all for human endeavor - freely performed, not based on slave labor.

Particularly when you have no first hand knowledge of what is actually driving them.

My property extracted under the threat of violence?

Curval: Miko....what if they find a cheap clean alternative to fossil fuels on one of the planets?

I am not against research. I am against government-funded research and for private research.

Cheap clean alternative to fossil fuels is much more likely to be found in a laboratory or a theoredtical study than on an other planet.

miko

Skuzzy · « **Reply #59 on:** January 06, 2004, 02:25:36 PM »

You are too immersed in politics to have a discussion about this miko. Just back away from this thread and allow some people the chance to have a bit of pride in a rather incredible accomplishment.

I will say you have no idea what you are talking about in this area and should stop trying to defend your position. There are thousands of people involved in this project who were happy to be a part of it and are very proud of what they did.

I won't have you pissing on their parade for your personal political agenda. Now,..back away from the thread.