Author Topic: Nice work, Mr Bush (Read 6184 times)

Maniac · « **Reply #135 on:** January 19, 2004, 04:24:36 PM »

CC, thx

ravells · « **Reply #136 on:** January 19, 2004, 04:27:17 PM »

I don't know enough about the laws of other countries, but I think it is likely that they will have different laws as to when the age of criminal responsibility begins.

However, I do think that each country is expected to conform to its own laws.

Ravs

lord dolf vader · « **Reply #137 on:** January 19, 2004, 04:44:46 PM »

one more vote against holding anyone without charge.

men who torture are not men.

the one they let out have a story, whos on the side of the torturerers again?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3241265.stm

Martlet · « **Reply #138 on:** January 19, 2004, 04:48:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lord dolf vader
one more vote against holding anyone without charge.

men who torture are not men.

the one they let out have a story, whos on the side of the torturerers again?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3241265.stm

Reliable source.

Is he the guy that told you Bush was a deserter?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #139 on:** January 19, 2004, 04:50:02 PM »

Where are the wild accusations? He only disagreed with the fact that he was imprisoned and interrogtaed which is of course understandable but where is the substance? Surely he should open up his media blitz with cries of hours and hours of torture...

Toad · « **Reply #140 on:** January 19, 2004, 05:24:00 PM »

Quote

...He says he was kept for more than a year in a prison cell that was like a cage meant for animals...

My Cod! The inhumanity!

Quote

... he says he was treated in the worst possible manner ...

But, of course, he can't tell you about that in detail right now. Wonder why?

Quote

..was repeatedly interrogated about his links to al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden

NO! Say it's not so Shoeless Mohammed! They actually repeatedly interrogated you? They just kept asking questions and questions and more questions? Just because they were trying to track down the guy responsible for killing 2500+ people in the WTC and Pentagon?

I feel your pain!

Not as much as the pain I feel for the families of the victims, though.

Gotta admit though, LDV... there's more substance there than in most of your links. This is unassailable proof or torture fer sure, dude! fer shure!

MJHerman · « **Reply #141 on:** January 20, 2004, 08:13:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes I do assume that a realese means that this person was judged not to be guilty - thats precisely what trials to in the criminal courts.

According to what you said your police analogy does not apply, no charges and no criminal court system in cuba.

So based on that I'll take it you are in the random release camp - they let those guys go because they were all born in June....

My apologies, but you need a refresher on how your criminal justice system works.

1. Person is arrested by police because they have reasonable cause to believe a criminal offence has been committed or they have witnessed the commission of an offence.

2. Person is charged with an offence and person is brought before a judge where the prosecution needs to show that they have a case.

3. Trial takes place.

The fact that someone is released after #1 but before #2 or #3 does not mean that they have been judged "not guilty".....it could also mean that the police never had a valid case to begin with. So, to prevent the government from randomly picking people up for questioning and detention, certain protections are in place, such as the right to counsel, right to a speedy trial, right to know what you are charged with and right to provide a defence to that charge.

None of those are afforded to your Gitmo guests.

I'm not sure where you got this idea that somehow I'm an advocate of this random release camp you keep referring to, so I'll ignore the comment again. If it makes you feel better to continue to refer to some imagined random release rather than present a coherent argument and/or present evidence of these trials you keep referring to, feel free to do so.

Toad · « **Reply #142 on:** January 20, 2004, 08:18:47 AM »

Hers' another refreshing thing to consider.

These guys didn't stick up a 7-11 and they're not being held as common petty criminals arrested by the justice system.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #143 on:** January 20, 2004, 10:01:41 AM »

I know how it works, I just dont think tyhe mechanism applies in this case. Considering all these people were captured around terrorist training areas in afghaistan do yiou think they would be realesed without a determination of innocence having taken place? These arent random town drunk being relesed because the "cops" dont want to bother with them. If they are releasing them then SOME PROCESS TO DETERMINE GUILT OR INNONCE ( a trial) is taking place at gitmo and some are getting relesed if found to be innicent or not otherwise a threat.

911 was not a criminal offense like a robbery or check fraud. If any of you guys think and belive OBL and the bunch deserve normal criminal justice syatem trials please vote for this man in your upcoming primary!

VOTE FOR ME!

Ping · « **Reply #144 on:** January 20, 2004, 10:29:49 AM »

Grun, you should really control your Knee Jerk assumptions.

How do you equate believing in following ones own laws and standards, applied to other countries, with Believing OBL?
Sometimes I think you just look for confrontation.
Its either that or you are afflicted with the very dangerous case of Blind Patriotism.
[Hijack mode on]
Patriotism while admirable, can become a very serious shortcoming if followed blindly.
Can you kids recite any examples of Blind Patriotism leading to horrendous transgressions in History?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #145 on:** January 20, 2004, 10:37:50 AM »

I just dont think the people who supported 911 belong in the criminal justice system.

There are 600 guys at guantanamo. We captured and had acesss to liteally thousands of afghans and taliban and alqaeda, If this was some random rush to imprison all arabs or muslims or afgand for no reason then why only 600 at gitmo? They are special cases. And to top it all off guys a re getting released, which means there is a trial process that considers the merits of keeping people in custody - it considers their innocence or guilt and threat level. If they are releses then obviously the authorities there belive thewy are not a threat and are innocent. What else do you want? Should we set them free on bail until they get a trial with johnnie cochran? Perhaps we can do that and give them plane tickets to canada where I'm sure you would love to have them.

I'm more concenrned with the blind stupidity of some people when it comes to their desires to baby these terrorist murderes than I am with somebodys love for america, especially after 911 when we found out just how dear what we have here is.

Ping · « **Reply #146 on:** January 20, 2004, 11:03:05 AM »

Thank you, that was a reasonably legitimate response, other than wanting to send them to Canada. We dont want them

.

What I find a problem with Gitmo is, Waiting 2+ years to even start trials ? If they are setting the innocent ones free, how can they justify holding these ones for 2 years witout even allowing them legal counsel ?
If they are so absolutely guilty why not try them right away and throw the full extent of whatever fate awaits them immediately?
By holding them outside of the country and giving them a cute status, just to avoid following the same laws demanded of other countries, is just plain hypocritical in IMO.
I have No problem with Capital Punishment , Nor do I have a problem with incarceration of the Guilty. But obviously there is a problem if guys are getting released after 2 years of incarceration.
That is not a sign that the system is working. It is failing those potentially innocent.

Toad · « **Reply #147 on:** January 20, 2004, 11:11:55 AM »

Ping,

It isn't a "criminal justice" situation.

Last I heard they still we classing them as ''unlawful combatants'' and haven't even granted them POW status. Maybe that's changed by now, I don't know.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm saying that making a case for them based on "criminal justice system" simply doesn't apply at this point.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #148 on:** January 20, 2004, 11:16:54 AM »

My view of it is that these people are being held without bail until their trials are completed, they are relesed if innocent, or kept in custody if found guilty. If they are released then they are innocent, if they are not then we know they are either guilty or still on trial. Obvioisly you cant set potential terrorists out on bail in the course of the trial, so where else do you keep them?

I dont know whether they have lawyers or counsel of some sort but the fact that some have bern set free clearly implies that there is cahnce for those who are innocent to have a fair opprtunity for fredom.

Look I would not support this if they were common street crinals or drunks or check frauders. But they are not like that, I feel its a differnt case and I dont think they merit a normal court proceeding. 911 was not merely a criminal matter.

Toad · « **Reply #149 on:** January 20, 2004, 11:20:28 AM »

I don't know Grun.....

Think about what a bunch of level-headed, open-minded, friendly, tolerant, reasonable people the Taliban were.

You know... blowing up 1000 year old Buddha's, killing women at the soccer stadium for adultery, no education for women, no women in professional occupations. Pretty normal bunch of folks; just like everyone else.

Maybe we should turn 'em all out. They'd probably just join Red Crescent and do humantiarian stuff back home.