Author Topic: Spitfire IX overmodeled?? (Read 39141 times)

Angus · « **Reply #210 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:12:55 PM »

Hmm
" Remember that Galland campaigned for a concentration of defence fighters to use more of their total strength against a single incursion"

Paralell to the "Big Wing Theory", which did not work to well
However the Germans had more radar coverage and depth of territory to be able to excercize this.

Do you have "the first and the last" btw, GScholz? Would love to get my hand on that one. Been looking for it when I've been in Germany, but yet without success.

GScholz · « **Reply #211 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:17:18 PM »

One final note on the LW thing: Mind you that those 1097 fighters were only those that were specifically used for the defence against the allied bombing campaign. The LW still had considerable more operational units in conventional roles for local air defence and ground support, in France, Italy and most notably in Russia. On the Eastern Front on 10 June 1944 the LW operated 2085 combat aircraft. 105 in Luftflotte 5 in Finland, 360 in Luftflotte 1 in the Baltic, 775 in Luftflotte 6 in the central sector covering the approaches to Poland, and 845 in Luftflotte 4 in the Balkans and Carpathian sector.

It is a matter of historical fact that the LW committed far more resources to fighting the Russians than they did the Anglo-American invasion in the west.

GScholz · « **Reply #212 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:18:50 PM »

No, sorry Angus, I don't.

GScholz · « **Reply #213 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:21:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Guppy35
It still speaks to Allied air superiority right?

Dan/Slack

Indeed, but not supremacy. Distinct difference.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #214 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:27:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Indeed, but not supremacy. Distinct difference.

I missed where there is a difference? The Allies controlled the fight. What else did they need to do? When did the Luftwaffe stop them from what they wanted to do?

If your argument is that it wasn't air supremacy because the Luftwaffe could get planes off the ground, I'd suggest that's a bit of a weak argument.

And lets face it. Who won? Thats about as much supremacy as you can have right?

Go find a German Army vet from Normandy and ask him if he thinks that Allied airpower didn't control the skies.

What was the Wehrmacht joke from Normandy?

If the plane overhead was camoflaged it was RAF, if it was Silver it was USAAF and if it was invisible it was Luftwaffe?

Dan/Slack

GScholz · « **Reply #215 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:31:04 PM »

Do you not understand the concept of air supremacy yet?!!!! How dim are you?!!! The LW was not DESTROYED and continued to offer resistance i.e. THE ALLIES DID NOT HAVE AIR SUPREMACY!!!

hawker238 · « **Reply #216 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:36:24 PM »

Haha, read the first quote by GScholz on page 5 and the one above. That's progress folks!

Guppy35 · « **Reply #217 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:38:08 PM »

LOL, I see, since they LW wasn't DESTROYED until May 8, 1945, then the Allies didn't have supremacy just superiority. Interesting distinction.

As long as someone in a LW uniform was breathing, then it was just superior not supreme.

LOL my mistake. I take it all back. You win, I lose. You've convinced me.

Does that mean you are superior or supreme now?

LOL

Dan/Slack

GScholz · « **Reply #218 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:38:43 PM »

Your meaning? (@ Hawker)

GScholz · « **Reply #219 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:43:15 PM »

Yes, air supremacy means that you're practically alone in the sky and can use all your aircraft for offensive air-ground operations. Air superiority means that you control the sky, but still have to allocate aircraft to interdict enemy air operations (in this context that means escort fighters and airfield denial operations by fighter-bombers).

Is this really so difficult to understand?

Crumpp · « **Reply #220 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:55:59 PM »

Not by the Defintion YOU posted. Thought I answered that question for you, Gscholz. If you still got questions just scroll up a few post's and you will see where it was broken down for you.
Didn't you understand what Guppy has posted??

I've got "First and the Last". Matter of fact I got two brand new copies while I was in Afghanistan, Wife got it for my birthday cause she thought I didn't have it already. Bookshop sent me two copies. If you want one let me know and I'll slide it your way for the Postage. Ok book but kind of a propaganda piece and chest thumpeing session for Galland.

Gunther Ralls memoir and authorized autobiography is much better following the same non-technical lines without the chest thumpin and for some great inside technical/tactical info on the Luftwaffe check out "The Luftwaffe fighter force: A view from the Cockpit".

Some good reading on the General conduct of the Air War:

Clash of Wings - Great General overview of the ENTIRE WWII Air War both Western, Eastern and Pacific Theaters.

The Luftwaffe Diaries - Good overview of the LW High Command

Air War Over Europe - Concentrates on the Western Front.

All Great reading.

Gscholtz put out a great list for technical info. Got most on his list in my library especially the 109/190 material. Almost any of the Schiffer Military Histories are great technical references.

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #221 on:** January 27, 2004, 06:12:55 PM »

Crumpp and GScholz: A suggestion

Next autumn, you travel to Iceland, stay at my place, bring yer books+your duty free, and we can all get pissed, discuss, and read a lot!
How about it

GScholz · « **Reply #222 on:** January 27, 2004, 06:17:15 PM »

"Air supremacy is defined as the condition when the enemy air force is in-capable of effective interference. Through the complete destruction of the enemy air forces, this condition is the ultimate goal of an air campaign. Yet, this condition may be difficult or even impossible to achieve. It may occur however, through the establishment of a diplomatic “no-fly zone”. Under the condition of air supremacy, the air commander employs all of his aircraft at will."

"Air superiority is defined as the condition when the conduct of operations is possible at a given time and place without prohibitive interference by the enemy. This is a necessary and obligatory condition to attain success in combat and overall victory in a war. The most efficient method of attaining air superiority is to attack enemy aviation assets close to their source at maintenance and launch facilities, early warning and C2 sites, and ground-based air defense sites."

So tell me, did the allies have to escort their bombers? Did they attack German airfields? Did they attack German aircraft production and support facilities? If the answer is yes then the allies did not have air supremacy. In fact a sizable portion of the combined allied air forces were allocated to fighting the LW and to suppress German aircraft production and airfield operation.

You are wrong. If you don't see that then there is nothing more to do about it. Good night.

GScholz · « **Reply #223 on:** January 27, 2004, 06:19:13 PM »

You're on Angus.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #224 on:** January 27, 2004, 06:26:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Yes, air supremacy means that you're practically alone in the sky and can use all your aircraft for offensive air-ground operations. Air superiority means that you control the sky, but still have to allocate aircraft to interdict enemy air operations (in this context that means escort fighters and airfield denial operations by fighter-bombers).

Is this really so difficult to understand?

and this is your definition I take it? Where did this definition originate? I must have missed the source earlier in the thread.

Just looking around for other definitions of supremacy

SUPREMACY

WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] power to dominate or defeat; "mastery of the seas" (Or mastery of the air as the case may be)

Synonyms: domination, mastery

See Also: ascendance, ascendancy, ascendence, ascendency, control, dominance, superiority, transcendence, transcendency

Note the see also: Superiority.

So did the Allies not dominate, control, have mastery of the air?

Check this guy out:

http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/thtrlosses.htm

Luftwaffe losses 43-44. He claims more losses in the Western front for the Luftwaffe.

He also states that "Allied Air Supremacy" facillitated the Allied invasion of France. And this guy is clearly a Luftwaffe fanatic.

He interchanges Air Superiority with Air Supremacy too.

So his definition is wrong and yours is the only one we can go by?

Oops it's Donald Caldwell's site on JG26. He must be wrong then

Dan/Slack