Spitfire IX overmodeled??

[Angus]

Do you think that the IWM will not agree to the fact that the RAF won the Battle of Britain?

[gripen]

Crumpp,
As far as I know all sources admit that the RAF won. I'm not going to play with speculations like you. I have been looking and asking for facts (statistical data) last couple hunred messages (since 1.2.04). So far you have provided bunch of speculations,  questionable  data from Lund and large amount of total nonsense (like LW had 2000 planes somewhere and so on).

So far we know that (sources above) :

"Fighter Command Serviceable Aircraft as at 0900 hours, 7th September 1940

* Spitfire - 223
* Hurricane - 398

These numbers do not contain reserves (something around 250) nor planes under mainteance/repair in the squadrons (number unknown). Producution was around 400/month.

Luftwaffe 7.9.40 (strenght/serviceable):

* Bf 109 - 864/678

Reserves unknown. These numbers contain also fighters in Norway (44/35). Production around 200/month.

gripen

[Slash27]

get back in line and beg for aid.

[Crumpp]

Do you think I'm arguing the LW WON the BoB?

If so then you truly are beyond moronic.  Have the nurse check your thorazine drip......

Here let me once more quote both the IWM and RAF's FINAL CONCLUSIONS about the BoB.  Yes folks these quotes are AFTER they have examined all the data.  Since your getting your plane numbers from the same site......

And Yes GRIPEN those numbers for the RAF INCLUDE RESERVES!  Read the darn site and quit manipulating data!

POST ANY SITE THAT REACHES YOUR CONCLUSION ABOUT PHASE II OF THE BoB!!  

Here Gripen,


Just like this. As Agent Friday used to say, "Just the facts".


Even the Imperial War Museaum says the LW almost won in September.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/online/battle...in/overview.htm

"The crucial period of the battle was between 24 August and 15 September. Fighter Command came closest to losing when its vital sector airfields around London were attacked. The decisive turning point came on 7 September when the Luftwaffe switched its attention to the capital. This tactical blunder allowed Fighter Command to recover its strength rapidly to inflict, on 15 September, losses significant enough to show the Germans the battle could not be won."

Notice the wording: "Came closest to losing..."

No lets look at Lund's conclusions about the BoB found on page 26 of the his document and pg 31 under adobe thumbnails:

"In the final analysis, perhaps the Germans
could have won. Perhaps, if they had
aggressively pursued either campaign
strategy they could have won, but that will
always remain conjecture."

Gosh that is exactly what I have been saying.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ww2/batlbrit.pdf


A site that deals in WWII artifacts:

"The Battle of Britain raged over the skies of southern England throughout that late summer of 1940 - the Luftwaffe lost a total of 1,733 aircraft from July to October, the RAF 915. Had he but known it, Göering was only 24 hours from victory at one point according to British Flight Command. All our reserves were spent and our pilots were exhausted. Incredibly, Göering decided that the Luftwaffe were taking too much of a punishment from the British fighters and he ordered his planes to switch their attention away from the British airfields and towards the British cities. Whilst this was bad news for the civilian populations of the industrial cities, this gave the R.A.F. and the aviation industry a reprieve and a crucial breather to re-arm and re-stock. It also meant that a German invasion of Britain had to be postponed and that Germany was soon to turn its attention eastwards - a decision which was arguably to cost them the war."


http://www.retrosellers.com/features61.htm

Notice it says "All our reserves were spent"


And Finally the Royal Air Force:


"Heavy fighter losses in France saw Dowding warn the War Cabinet of the dire consequences should the present wastage rates continue, and a letter dated 16 May 1940 is one of the great documents of history. After covering the evacuation from Dunkirk, he had just enough aircraft to fight the Luftwaffe in the one place they could be effectively used - within the comprehensive air defence system he had built in the UK. Even so, he admitted that the situation was "critical in the extreme" and while it is true that the immortal "Few" - his 'chicks' as Churchill christened them - won the Battle using the organisation he had created, the Luftwaffe lost it through bad leadership, faulty tactics and mistaken target selection."


http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/commanders.html

Well that is straight from the horses mouth. Let see your sources without YOUR opinion placed on them. Just quote them without making an argument.

No amount of "data manipulation" to advance YOUR own view will change the facts of history.

End of Story

Crumpp

[gripen]

Crumpp,
Again, the question is if there is relevant statistical evidence which supports the argument that the LW was actually winning BoB. So far you have provided absolutely none, all your sources are just speculations not facts. Only certain fact is that the RAF actually won BoB, rest is just speculations and playing with "what if" card. I'm not going to play that game with you.

The IWM site does not contain any relevant statistical data, it just agrees that the fighter command suffered losses in the 2nd phase (no one has denied this).

Lund's speculations are based on false numbers as pointed out several times (with statistics from RAF site).

Rettrosellers is a shopping site and again their speculations are easy to prove false with statistics from the RAF site (there were reserves left).

The page you refer from the RAF site does not contain any relevant statistical data, it just states what is all ready known that the situation was critical and rest is speculation.

Please post facts not speculations. As noted above you appear to be unable to see difference between facts and speculations.

Please show where I have manipulated data?

gripen

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp


And Finally the Royal Air Force:


"Heavy fighter losses in France saw Dowding warn the War Cabinet of the dire consequences should the present wastage rates continue, and a letter dated 16 May 1940 is one of the great documents of history. After covering the evacuation from Dunkirk, he had just enough aircraft to fight the Luftwaffe in the one place they could be effectively used - within the comprehensive air defence system he had built in the UK. Even so, he admitted that the situation was "critical in the extreme" and while it is true that the immortal "Few" - his 'chicks' as Churchill christened them - won the Battle using the organisation he had created, the Luftwaffe lost it through bad leadership, faulty tactics and mistaken target selection."


http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/commanders.html

Well that is straight from the horses mouth. Let see your sources without YOUR opinion placed on them. Just quote them without making an argument.

No amount of "data manipulation" to advance YOUR own view will change the facts of history.

End of Story

Crumpp

Going to take issue with the Dowding quote Crumpp.  Thats referencing Dowding not wanting to send more fighter squadrons to France etc.  He didn't see any point in wasting more fighter aircraft in what he saw was a losing battle in France.  That's why no Spits were ever sent and not a great many Hurricanes either.

That comment was not made in reference to the Battle of Britain itself.  They had time between Dunkirk and the start of the German attacks to regroup.

Dan/Slack

[gripen]

Funny thing in these Crumpp's sources is that they tend to contradict each other. As for example Lund states (page 19):

"reserves had dwindled from 518 Spitfires and Hurricanes (in maintenance and storage) on 6 July, to only 292 by 7 September."

And as Crumpp self proudly quoted Rettrosellers:

"Notice it says "All our reserves were spent"

So which one is "Just the fact" Agent Friday?

And Crumpp's statement that numbers in RAF site includes reserves is simply laughable as Nashwan noted:

"It doesn't include the reserves.

"On 1st September there were 701 operational aircraft and on 6th September the figure was 738, with 256 in stores ready for immediate despatch"

Overy, the battle


6th September

Operational squadrons
Spitfire 19
Hurricane 32

Established strength
Spitfires 304
Hurricanes 512

Actual strength
Spitfires 304
Hurricanes 512

Serviceable reserve
Spitfires 41
Hurricanes 183

The Battle of Britain, Richard Townshend Bickers

Now, let's look at what figures the RAF site gives.

Serviceable aircraft, Spits and Hurris,

24th August 646

30th August 644

5th september 636

If these numbers include the reserves, then the RAF was not even losing strength from the reserves.

Those figures for the RAf site are serviceable aircraft with the squadrons, not including the reserves. To suggest otherwise is not only wrong, it implies the RAf was winning by a bigger amount than anybody has claimed."

gripen

[Crumpp]

The first sentence of the quote  refers to his decision not to throw the full weight of Fighter Command into the Battle of France.

Even so, he admitted that the situation was "critical in the extreme" and while it is true that the immortal "Few" - his 'chicks' as Churchill christened them - won the Battle using the organization he had created, the Luftwaffe lost it through bad leadership, faulty tactics and mistaken target selection.

Refers to the BoB.  "The few" were not in France.  Notice it doesn't say "lost it because they had no chance"

Further down the page IF you read it we find:

He abused the powers he was given to appropriate large estates and other trappings of status and wealth, neglecting his military duties in the process, and effectively leaving the new Luftwaffe leaderless at the crucial time. Indeed, it may be said that his major instance of direct control over the conduct of the battle, the switching of targets from airfields to cities, was the decision that cost the Luftwaffe the Battle, if not, ultimately, the war.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/commanders.html

What does the RAF say cost the LW the battle??  Where does it say the RAF wasn't at a critical point and about to lose?  Where does it say that they had plenty of planes?


Your saying now Gripen that the RAF wasn't even taking significant losses?  



That is a new spin on History!!  

Christ son Even the RAF says it was desperate and the change in tactics from Phase II saved them.  End of Story

Now for the last time just provide a link to ANY site that takes your view of the battle.  The RAF, where you are getting all your plane numbers, surely doesn't!!

Crumpp

[gripen]

Crumpp,
I have stated right from the beginning that  both sides suffered heavy losses (1.2.04):

"Otherwise so far I have not seen any statistics which supports the argument that the LW was actually winning BoB. Both sides suffered heavy losses and it appears that the RAF was more worried about their losses than LW; Dowding wanted to save fighters for possible invasion."

So let's see statistics from the site  you pointed as a source:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LW_OBs.html

First Luftwaffe strenght and serviceable planes in the  end of the 2nd phase, note that now I have included also ErprGr 210 which used also Bf 110 (night fighter unit which I did not count for 864/678). So actual total might be smaller because I don't know how many Bf 110s they had.
         
7 Sept 1940 JGs (unit, base(s), plane(s), strenght/serviceable, notes)         

Stab/JG 1, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 4/3
Stab/JG 3, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 3/3
I/JG 3, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 23/14
II/JG 3, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 24/14
III/JG 3, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 25/23
Stab/JG 26, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 4/3
I/JG 26, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 27/20
II/JG 26, Northen France, Bf 109E, 32/28
III/JG 26, Northen France, Bf 109E, 29/26
Stab/JG 27, Etaples, Bf 109E, 5/4
I/JG 27, Etaples, Bf 109E, 33/27
II/JG 27, Montreuil, Bf 109E, 37/33
III/JG 27, Sempy, Bf 109E, 31/27
Stab/JG 51, St. Omer, Bf 109E, 5/4
I/JG 51, St. Omer, St. Inglevert, Bf 109E, 36/33
II/JG 51, St. Omer, St. Inglevert, Bf 109E, 22/13
III/JG 51, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 44/31
Stab/JG 52, Laon/Couvorn, Bf 109E, 2/1
I/JG 52,Laon/Couvorn, Bf 109E, 21/17
II/JG 52, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 28/23
III/JG 52, Pas-de-Calais, Bf 109E, 31/16
Stab/JG 53, Northen France, Bf 109E, 2/2
II/JG 53, Wissant, Bf 109E, 33/24
III/JG 53, Northen France, Bf 109E, 30/22
Stab/JG 54, South Holland, Bf 109E, 4/2
I/JG 54,South Holland, Bf 109E, 28/23
II/JG 54, South Holland, Bf 109E, 35/27
III/JG 54, South Holland, Bf 109E, 29/23
I/JG 77, Northen France, Bf 109E, 42/40
I/JG 53, Brittany, Bf 109E, 34/27
*Stab/JG 2, Beaumont-le-Roger, Bf 109E, 3/2
*I/JG 2,Beaumont-le-Roger, Bf 109E, 29/24
*II/JG 2, Beaumont-le-Roger, Bf 109E, 22/18
*III/JG 2, Le Havre, Bf 109E, 30/19

total 787/616
            
Other units:   
         
II/JG 77, South Norway, Bf 109E, 44/35 (Norway)
ErprGr 210, Denain, Bf 109E/Bf 110C/D, 26/17 (Night fighters, also Bf 110 counted)
II (Sch.)/LG 2   St. Omer, Bf 109E, 33/27, (Fighter bombers)

total 103/79

All 890/695

The LW fighter units had 616 Bf 109s serviceable in the end of the 2nd phase and 79 in other units/places. As for comparison here is listings for 13.8.1940 from same site.


13 Aug 40 JGs (unit, base(s), plane(s), strenght/serviceable, notes)            
            
Stab/JG 3, Wierre au Bois, Bf 109E, 3/3
I/JG 3, Grandvilliers, Bf 109E, 33/32
II/JG 3, Samer, Bf 109E, 29/22
III/JG 3, Desvres, Le Touquet, Bf 109E, 29/29
Stab, I/JG 26, Audembert, Bf 109E, 42/38
II/JG 26, Marquise-Ost, Bf 109E, 39/35
III/JG 26, Caffiers, Bf 109E, 40/38
Stab/JG 51, Wissant, Bf 109E, 4/4
I/JG 51, Pihen bei Calais, Bf 109E, 32/32
II/JG 51, Marquise-West, Bf 109E, 33/33
III/JG 51, St. Omer-Clairmarais, Bf 109E, 32/30
Stab, I/JG 52, Coquelles, Bf 109E, 42/34
II/JG 52, Peuplingues, Bf 109E, 39/32
III/JG 52, Zerbst, Bf 109E, 31/11
Stab, I/JG 54, Campagne-les-Guines, Bf 109E, 38/26
II/JG 54, Hermelingen, Bf 109E, 36/32
III/JG 54, Guines-en-Calais, Bf 109E, 42/40
II (Sch.)/LG 2, Böblingen, Bf 109E, 39/31
tab, I, II/JG 2, Beaumont-le-Roger, Bf 109E, 73/63
III/JG 2, Le Havre, Bf 109E, 32/28
Stab/JG 27, Cherbourg-West, Bf 109E, 5/4
I/JG 27, Plumett, Bf 109E, 37/32
II/JG 27, Crèpon, Bf 109E, 40/32
III/JG 27, Arcques, Bf 109E, 39/32
Stab/JG 53, Cherbourg, Bf 109E, 6/6
I/JG 53, Rennes, Guernsey, Bf 109E, 39/37
II/JG 53, Dinan, Guernsey, Bf 109E, 38/34
III/JG 53, Brest, Sempy, Bf 109E, 38/35
total 930/805
            
Other units (JG 77 unclear)
Stab/JG 77, ?, Bf 109E, 4/4 (unknown base)
I/JG 77, ?, Bf 109E, 38/37 (unknown base)
II/JG 77, Stavanger, Trondheim, Bf 109E   43/38 (Norway)            
ErprGr 210, Calais-Marck, Bf 109E-4B, 10/9 (night fighters)
III/NJG 1, Köln-Ostheim, Bf 109D, 3/1 (night fighters)
III/NJG 1, Köln-Ostheim, Bf 109E, 17/16 (Night fighters)
Total 115/105

All 1045/910

Number of serviceable planes in JGs dropped from 805 to 616 between 13th August and 7th September ie 23,5% which tells that the drop was much more than Lund's claim (even more if unclear JG 77 parts are counted).  Number of all serviceable Bf 109 dropped from 910 to 695 (23,5%).

Comparable numbers in same dates for Fighter command are:

August 13th from http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/august13.html

"Fighter Command Serviceable Aircraft as at 0900 hours, 13 August 1940

    * Blenheim - 71
    * Spitfire - 226
    * Hurricane - 353
    * Defiant - 26
    * Gladiator - 2
    * Total - 678"

September 7th from http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/september7.html

"Fighter Command Serviceable Aircraft as at 0900 hours, 7th September 1940

    * Blenheim - 44
    * Spitfire - 223
    * Hurricane - 398
    * Defiant - 20
    * Gladiator - 9
    * Total - 694"

So the RAF had 579 serviceable Hurricanes and Spitfires in August 13th and 621 in the September 7th. As pointed out several times, these numbers do not contain reserves (around 250 in 7.9.1940) nor planes under mainteance/repair in the squadrons or RAF repair organisation.

What we see here are facts not speculations (or the sources you have pointed out are false). In the end of the 2nd phase the RAF could keep the strenght and had reserves while the LW could not keep strenght and apparently had no reserves. If you want to argue that these numbers are manipulated then please prove it.

gripen

[VO101_Isegrim]

The Goebbels Reenactors Club made up Gripen and Naswhan failed to show any proof for their claim for the LW not having reserves left during BoB during the last 200 posts. I have seen no sign of listing the OKL`s reserves by them, just the endless mantra and revisionism.

Applying their logic to the 2nd TAF`s Typhoon sqaudrons - which were down to 10% strenght in the end of 1944 - "proves" the RAF was completely out of fighter reserves by that time.

Nothing more needs to be said.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
The Goebbels Reenactors Club made up Gripen and Naswhan failed to show any proof for their claim for the LW not having reserves left during BoB during the last 200 posts. I have seen no sign of listing the OKL`s reserves by them, just the endless mantra and revisionism.

Applying their logic to the 2nd TAF`s Typhoon sqaudrons - which were down to 10% strenght in the end of 1944 - "proves" the RAF was completely out of fighter reserves by that time.

Nothing more needs to be said.

Gee Barbi, if the RAF was out of reserves then how were the a/c that were destroyed in Bodenplatte  replaced so quickly - within-in days?    

It is hard to show there was LW reserves when there was none.  Now where did you say there were LW reserves? The LW could not even keep the original strength of the units involved from the start of BoB.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Gee Barbi, if the RAF was out of reserves then how were the a/c that were destroyed in Bodenplatte  replaced so quickly - within-in days?    

Mindless Moron, the RAF replaced the Typhoons that were destroyed in Bodenplatte? "Within days"? Where, when? Source, proof, anything? You never have those. NEVER.

Let`s test their logic.

The RAF`s 2nd TAF Typhoon squadrons were all down to 1-4 planes by December 1944 from the Established strenght of 20.

Applying the logic presented as "proof" by Nashwan, Gripen, and Mindless Moron, the RAF did not have reserves by December 1944. If the RAF would have reserves, the units strenght would not be allowed to fall that low, they say.

Naswhan, Gripen and Mindless Moron all agree that the RAF had no fighter reserves by December 1944.

It is hard to show there was LW reserves when there was none.

You only have to prove that now. You can parrot it very well, like a machine.

List the decline of OKL reserves. You can`t do that somehow. Which makes your posts no more than a mad mantra of wishful thinking.

BTW it`s a greatly entertaining to see Gripen`s strereotypical "All I say is Gold, all you say is false, all my stats are gold, all your numbers are false, all you say is unsupported, all I say has the Pope`s backing"  way of argumentation.

[MiloMorai]

Barbi, how do you prove something that is not? This past week you spent in the mental asylum did nothing for your logic.

You claim the LW had reserves in 1940 during BoB, so lets see you proof. The numbers, places, units,..... are?
 

Again your inability to read.  How do you see the word Typhoon in the word a/c?

I don't know why you continue to show the world that you are an idiot.

from The Hawker Typhoon & Tempest Francis Mason pg101

"No 440 Sqd suffered worst at Eindhoven. Eight(8) a/c were moving onto the runway to TO when Me109s and long-nosed Fw190s opened their attack. Two Typhoons were desrtoeyed immediately and two badly damaged. One pilot PO ET Flanagan was seriously wounded and many pilots and ground crew reeived minor injuries. The Sqd dispersal was struck by a 1100lb bomb but it only destroyed the orderly room. In the afternoon WgCmd Grant, whose own Typhoon had been damaged and was written off, decided that the 440 Sqd would be non-operational until replacement a/c were delivered. The Squadron was declared operational once more on Jan 4, 1945."


So both 440 and 338 Sqds had each 8 a/c preparing to TO. 440 Sqd lost 8 destroyed and 4 damaged. 438 Sqd lost 5 destroyed and 2 damaged. Now where is that 10% Barbi claims?

pg 103 "Within 6 days every Typhoon and Tempest that had been written off had been replaced from stocks."

So much for your bs Barbi, for that is in a "few days".

Now were there any shortages of other a/c such as the Spitfire, Mustang, P-47,....... you would like to claim?

..............

Barbi, what does the state of RAF a/c reserves in late 44, early 45 have to do with BoB? Typical Barbi ploy to deflect the discussion.

[Angus]

Oh, yeahhh baby, errrr.BARBI!!!!!!
Now we are maybe gonna have some fun!
I raise the common Barbi insult from "Mindless moron" to "you bed-wetting type". How's that for starters.
Anyway, Gripen has  fed us with all the numbers we need in the BoB-debate. There was something about Jg77 though:

"Number of serviceable planes in JGs dropped from 805 to 616 between 13th August and 7th September ie 23,5% which tells that the drop was much more than Lund's claim (even more if unclear JG 77 parts are counted). "

Just dug up that the Germans did transfer a unit from home defence and re-assign to/as Jg 77. 1 Gruppe (1 sqn) perhaps.
source: Christopher Shores.

[MiloMorai]

Single engine fighters

Date: 29.06.40
    Aircraft Pilots
Unit Type Est. On Str. Serv. Est. Pres. Ready Ltd. Duty
I./LG2 Bf 109E 39 38 21 39 33 30 0
Stab/JG1 Bf 109E 4 4 3 4 5 3 0
I./JG1 Bf 109E 39 28 26 39 51 32 0
Stab/JG2 Bf 109E 4 3 3 4 3 3 0
I./JG2 Bf 109E 39 33 26 39 39 35 0
II./JG2 Bf 109E 39 36 27 39 32 24 0
III./JG2 Bf 109E 39 36 14 39 34 22 0
IV./JG2 Bf 109E/Bf 109D 39 10/20 10/10 39 33 24 0
Stab/JG3 Bf 109E 4 3 3 4 3 3 0
I./JG3 Bf 109E 39 33 28 39 45 31 0
II./JG3 Bf 109E 39 40 31 39 34 32 0
III./JG3 Bf 109E 39 36 35 39 32 32 0
I./JG20 Bf 109E 39 37 25 39 41 32 0
I./JG21 Bf 109E 39 47 38 39 57 48 0
Stab/JG26 Bf 109E 4 2 0 4 2 2 0
I./JG26 Bf 109E 39 29 22 39 37 22 0
II./JG26 Bf 109E 39 35 16 39 30 23 0
III./JG26 Bf 109E 39 32 25 39 34 30 0
Stab/JG27 Bf 109E 4 3 3 4 3 3 0
I./JG27 Bf 109E 39 28 26 39 51 32 0
II./JG27 Bf 109E 39 35 25 39 37 30 0
Stab/JG51 Bf 109E 4 4 3 4 3 2 0
I./JG51 Bf 109E 39 48 25 39 34 24 0
II./JG51 Bf 109E 39 36 27 39 43 38 0
Stab/JG52 Bf 109E 4 3 3 4 1 1 0
I./JG52 Bf 109E 39 38 31 39 39 33 0
II./JG52 Bf 109E 39 39 26 39 32 32 0
III./JG52 Bf 109E 39 36 29 39 32 31 0
Stab/JG53 Bf 109E 4 5 4 4 4 4 0
I./JG53 Bf 109E 39 43 41 39 37 33 0
II./JG53 Bf 109E 39 39 38 39 35 35 0
III./JG53 Bf 109E 39 40 40 39 37 32 0
Stab/JG54 Bf 109E 4 4 3 4 3 3 0
I./JG54 Bf 109E 39 35 23 39 39 22 0
I./JG76 Bf 109E 39 39 35 39 34 27 0
Stab/JG77 Bf 109E 4 4 2 4 3 3 0
I./JG77 Bf 109E 39 40 35 39 39 32 0
II./JG77 Bf 109E 39 43 36 39 36 31 0
II./Tr.Gr.186 Bf 109E 39 42 38 39 39 30 0
TOTAL - 1171 1107 856 1171 1126 906 0

Single engine fighters

Date: 28.09.40
    Aircraft Pilots
Unit Type Est. On Str. Serv. Est. Pres. Ready Ltd. Duty
I./JG2 Bf 109E 39 36 29 39 39 33 -
Stab/JG2 Bf 109E 4 4 3 4 4 2 -
II./JG2 Bf 109E 39 32 22 39 36 26 -
III./JG2 Bf 109E 39 25 11 39 41 18 -
Stab/JG3 Bf 109E 4 3 3 4 2 2 -
I./JG3 Bf 109E 39 37 30 39 24 18 -
II./JG3 Bf 109E 39 31 20 39 24 24 -
III./JG3 Bf 109E 39 26 18 39 29 23 -
Stab/JG26 Bf 109E 4 4 2 4 3 1 -
I./JG26 Bf 109E 39 32 27 39 30 24 -
II./JG26 Bf 109E 39 34 26 39 31 20 -
III./JG26 Bf 109E 39 31 26 39 24 20 -
Stab/JG27 Bf 109E 4 3 3 4 3 3 -
I./JG27 Bf 109E 39 30 26 39 36 19 -
II./JG27 Bf 109E 39 30 25 39 31 20 -
III./JG27 Bf 109E 39 32 24 39 32 22 -
Stab/JG51 Bf 109E 4 4 4 4 2 2 -
I./JG51 Bf 109E 39 37 26 39 30 18 -
II./JG51 Bf 109E 39 35 28 39 34 25 -
III./JG51 Bf 109E 39 36 30 39 26 18 -
Stab/JG52 Bf 109E 4 2 2 4 1 1 -
I./JG52 Bf 109E 39 28 21 39 24 17 -
II./JG52 Bf 109E 39 25 24 39 29 17 -
III./JG52 Bf 109E 39 28 28 39 38 38 -
Stab/JG53 Bf 109E 4 3 3 4 4 3 -
I./JG53 Bf 109E 39 31 29 39 34 21 -
II./JG53 Bf 109E 39 28 18 39 24 19 -
III./JG53 Bf 109E 39 31 22 39 36 23 -
Stab/JG54 Bf 109E 4 3 3 4 3 3 -
I./JG54 Bf 109E 39 24 15 39 32 23 -
II./JG54 Bf 109E 39 43 29 39 38 20 -
III./JG54 Bf 109E 39 35 28 39 33 28 -
Stab/JG77 Bf 109E 4 4 4 4 4 4 -
I./JG77 Bf 109E 39 31 30 39 25 22 -
II./JG77 Bf 109E 39 42 33 39 35 35 -
III./JG77 Bf 109E 39 26 17 39 38 34 -
Stab/JG1 Bf 109E 4 4 4 4 4 3 -
I./LG2 Bf 109E 39 27 19 39 34 25 -
TOTAL - 1132 920 712 1132 917 676 -


So in June 40 The LW had TOTAL - 1171 1107 856 1171 1126 906 0 but in Sept 40 with all their reserves:rolleyes:  the LW could not even cover its losses during BoB - TOTAL - 1132 920 712 1132 917 676 -. In fact, German  a/c production could not keep up with the losses.

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/statistics/gob.htm