Author Topic: History: Atomic bombs. (Read 5327 times)

AKcurly · « **Reply #75 on:** January 23, 2004, 05:49:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
I've seen the textbooks and media coverage of history. It does not even closely indicate that there was a controversy or that some events could have easily turned the other way around. From teh history books it seems that US was developing along sone God-given plan and no human made any difference. That kind of promotes an uncritical attitude in people - either "we cannot chane anything" or "government knows better".
miko [/B]

You're missing the point, Miko. All extant & extinct societies are/have been tragically flawed. All societies have committed unspeakable atrocities. The US is certainly no different.

In the US case most of our worst, large scale atrocities were committed when our society was very young. You must remember, in 1800 hundred, most (non native) Americans were emigrants. Thus, our worst atrocities were in fact committed by Europeans.

The number of civilian deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a miniscule fraction of the civilians killed during WW2 by the allies. Look at the firebombings of Dresden, Tokyo and other axis cities -- death tolls far in excess of Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

curly

Dago · « **Reply #76 on:** January 23, 2004, 07:06:55 PM »

Congratulations to those who have decided to rebute Miko with fact and reason. He can't handle that.

Nuke noticed he loves to get verbose in an attempt to confuse and bewilder.

Akcurly understands that Miko just wants to dig up "dirt" on the US, Miko is always trying to paint everything about the USA in a bad light.

lasersailor184 and others are noticing that the "facts" Miko presents are not necessarily true facts.

Slowly the veil lifts, and Miko is more and more being exposed as a not too bright person who constantly attempts to smear everything about the USA. We have a tremendous amount to be proud of, and like any organization/government/person, we are not perfect, we make mistakes, but in the case of the USA, the good exceeds the bad by a huge factor.

Miko, time to buy a new life, your act is past old.

dago

NUKE · « **Reply #77 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:15:00 PM »

I'm still waiting for miko to respond to a little bait....a little tidbit about his "Smoot-Hawley tariff act " statement, in which he stated that it was the cause for Pearl Harbor.

miko, you are too ignorant to even know how I baited you, so I will explain. ( my bait was to get you to refer to the Herbert Hoover act again...incorrectly of course)

The Smoot-Hawley tariff act was signed by Herbert Hoover for one. Another small point: the act was a tarrif act imposing high tarriffs on imorts into the US ONLY and had nothing to do with denying Japan's ability to trade with any country, nor did it deny Japan it's means to survival. It had NOTHING to do with denying Japan anything.

Let's hear some more of your wisdom miko.

Thrawn · « **Reply #78 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:17:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by NUKE
I'm still waiting for miko to respond to a little bait....a little tidbit about his "Smoot-Hawley tariff act " statement, in which he stated that it was the cause for Pearl Harbor.

miko, you are too ignorant to even know how I baited you, so I will explain. ( my bait was to get you to refer to the Herbert Hoover again...incorrectly of course)

Let me get this straight, he didn't fall for your "bait" so he's ignorant?

NUKE · « **Reply #79 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:22:50 PM »

No, he did fall for the bait. He mentioned the tarrif act again to bolster his argument. Problem is, he didnt know what the act was, yet he continued to use it as an argument.

See, I made a point to debate him based on his missinformed argument rather than point out that he was being ignorant. It proved to me that he was indeed ignorant.

Yeager · « **Reply #80 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:29:23 PM »

Miko is more and more being exposed as a not too bright person
====
How can you say such a thing about a man with university education, and russian intellect. God knows these two traits, when combined, are lethal against working class stiffs.

Dago · « **Reply #81 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:45:55 PM »

Nuke, dont hold your breath for Miko to respond with an intelligent response. It has never happened yet. If he does respond, it will be with a lot of nonsense that will be quite irrelevant to your challenge. Or of course, he might just tell you that you just dont understand the subject. He tries that one when he can't come up with an intelligent reply. But then again, he will probably just ignore your challenge, as this is his most common response to a well thought out counterpoint.

Yeager (S), your grasp of the situation and ability towards subtle humor are admirable.

dago

Dago · « **Reply #82 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:49:11 PM »

Just wondering if Thrawn is sad, his hero, the famously anti-American Miko is going down in flames. So sad to see your red bubble burst. Who will lead the charge he wonders, who will hold the anti-American banner in this forum, who's voice will Thrawn listen to and say "yeah, what he said!"?

dago

Dune · « **Reply #83 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:59:51 PM »

The problem with Miko is that he has an agenda. And that colors everything he does and posts. Whether it's regarding the economy, history or muffin recipes. His agenda, to bring a pure capitalistic utopia to the world, skews everything he writes. He is a true believer. And like Timothy McViegh, suicide bombers and most Marine privates, no one can change his mind. If facts are presented that conflict with his view of the world (or how it should be) he keeps changing the game until he gets to win.

And the fact that the rest of us refuse to be prosetylized by him just proves we are ignorant, sheep, or plain traitors to the America created by the Founding Fathers. The fact that we refuse to join him, prostate before the altar of capitalism, cannot be because he is wrong. He, after all, is the victim of an oppresive regime (which gives him insight we'll never have) and much smarter than we are.

Miko, you are obviously a bright guy. And probably right about a few issues. However, your need to constantly denigrate America in an effort to raise up one the might not have ever really existed is boring. And off-putting. The fact is, like many self-preclaimed experts, you're a self-righteous blowhard and a pompus ass.

Thrawn · « **Reply #84 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:03:19 PM »

dago, you're acting like a child.

Scootter · « **Reply #85 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:15:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dune
The problem with Miko is that he has an agenda. And that colors everything he does and posts. Whether it's regarding the economy, history or muffin recipes. His agenda, to bring a pure capitalistic utopia to the world, skews everything he writes. He is a true believer. And like Timothy McViegh, suicide bombers and most Marine privates, no one can change his mind. If facts are presented that conflict with his view of the world (or how it should be) he keeps changing the game until he gets to win.

And the fact that the rest of us refuse to be prosetylized by him just proves we are ignorant, sheep, or plain traitors to the America created by the Founding Fathers. The fact that we refuse to join him, prostate before the altar of capitalism, cannot be because he is wrong. He, after all, is the victim of an oppresive regime (which gives him insight we'll never have) and much smarter than we are.

Miko, you are obviously a bright guy. And probably right about a few issues. However, your need to constantly denigrate America in an effort to raise up one the might not have ever really existed is boring. And off-putting. The fact is, like many self-preclaimed experts, you're a self-righteous blowhard and a pompus ass.

No not at all child like, this is well put and very concise, it may have to many multi syllable words for you though.

This about covers most of Miko's stuff as far I can see. He is a smart guy though, thats for sure.

Dago · « **Reply #86 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:28:02 PM »

I disagree that Miko is a bright guy.

Virtually every thread he started was cut and paste from other sources, much of it from the Libertarians. He is a follower, he has admitted it and all he does is parrot what he hears from others.

If he were bright, he might originate a subject, not regurgitate.

If he were bright, he might actually be able to answer a challenge with a comprehensible response. He doesn't.

If he were bright, he might consider the good and the bad, he might allow balance into his thought process. He doesn't.

Personally, I think he has many of you buffaloed. If I went out and looked for interesting discussions on the internet, pasted into this forum, would you think I am a bright guy?

dago

Yeager · « **Reply #87 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:28:20 PM »

scooter, that avatar is obscene.

Now excuse me while I go to the bathroom and toss a round for old times sake.

Urchin · « **Reply #88 on:** January 23, 2004, 11:43:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dago
Nuke, dont hold your breath for Miko to respond with an intelligent response. It has never happened yet. If he does respond, it will be with a lot of nonsense that will be quite irrelevant to your challenge. Or of course, he might just tell you that you just dont understand the subject. He tries that one when he can't come up with an intelligent reply. But then again, he will probably just ignore your challenge, as this is his most common response to a well thought out counterpoint.

Yeager (S), your grasp of the situation and ability towards subtle humor are admirable.

dago

I actually think Miko is pretty intelligent, or at least he seems to be. Hell, he almost makes me believe that free-market capitalism will eventually "work" (well, not really.... but he comes a helluva lot closer than anyone else I've ever talked with. Including my professors). Some of the other stuff I think he's full of **** on, but he seems like he at least makes an attempt to research his views so he isn't speaking completely out of his bellybutton like a lot of people.

Ossie · « **Reply #89 on:** January 24, 2004, 03:48:32 AM »

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You know the Japanese attitude at that time, how fanatic they were, they'd die for the Emperor...

So why did they surrender after the atomic bombings?

Because "he" (the Emperor) told them to. Apparently some weren't content with his decision (that whole bushido thing), and were fanatical enough to plot against his life.

Quote

None of the people I've cited was a pilot. Each one was a high-level commander or politician who had no prospects of peing pocked with a stick.

In case you are too stupid to understand what they are saying even after reading them, let me rephrease.
None of them said that an invasion was preferable to bombing.
They said that the land invasion was not necessary and neither was the bombing and the blockade would have brought tha same results - or even just accepting Japanese surrender on conditions that US ended up accepting it anyway.

That's funny. In 1945, it was the impression of the Navy brass that sustaining a blockade (ie, starving the population to death, how humane), would have brought victory. The reason I say that it's funny, is because for many years prior, it was the opinion of the Army Air Force brass that air power alone could win a major war. What anybody should have learned from WW2 is that it took a complete combined arms approach in order to achieve victory. This means that, ultimately, it would take men on foot, armed with rifles. The A-bomb was simply something that no military had factored into doctrine, if only because it was in many respects still inconceivable.

If you take the whole of the second world war into perspective, the quesition of necessity becomes irrelevant. The only practical question was whether or not it would work. It did. But I guess from a humanitarian vantage point, starvation is preferable to incineration, so it was "wrong" (?).