Author Topic: Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?  (Read 2901 times)

Offline Daff

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2000, 07:35:00 PM »
"Planes that have smaller fuel tanks must spend a disproportionate amount of their fuel load on climbing."

Not only that..but planes with lower climbrate also suffers as they'll spend more time in the climb, compared to distance travelled.
Now, AH doesnt have any deciedly bad climbers (yet), but it's painstakingly evident in Warbirds with the earlier US planeset. With a 15% increase in fuel consumption, the P-47C's range, if it wants to cruise at 25k, gets cut by at least 30%, where as the 109 (or similar) doesnt suffer anywhere near as much as it only spend 1/2 the time climbing.

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2000, 08:15:00 AM »
funked said... "That's crap Lazs. RAF, Luftwaffe and VVS fighters were all heavily engaged over the
                    battlefield in tactical roles. They were most definitely not used for field defense only."

sure funked (and ram) so long as the "battlefield" was close.    When the war turns into high alt escorts and buffs bombing your cities and you can't reach the other sides cities cause your planes are too short ranged then, yes, you are relegated to defense.   If a carrier force parks out of range of your short sighted fighters then, yes, you are relegated to defense.   In AH if  carriers were used effectively then, yes, short ranged fighters would be relegated to defense.  

It's really a matter of options.   With short range you have few options.   Without carriers you have even fewer.   It is easy to draw off short ranged fighters (and kill em) with long range bombing raids on cities.   How many LW fighters oppossed D day?  two?
lazs

Offline Fishu

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2000, 08:58:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -lazs-:
How many LW fighters oppossed D day?  two?

Isn't this one irrelevant?
There wasn't any more fighters because of stupidity of germans, when allies were 'supposed' to attack in calais and most of all.. they were all drunk on D-day  

Offline SKurj

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2000, 09:19:00 AM »
The intention of the thread is to determine whether the fuel multiplier has any relevance to the main arena.  It does to a degree, but I feel the multiplier as it stands is high.  The addition of drop tanks to aircraft that had them would alieviate some of the problem, if not all.
If DT's aren't added, then perhaps a reduction of the multiplier to 1.5 or 2 would suffice.

In an HA or scenario the multiplier plays a much larger role and I am all for it.  Though in the MA its just another factor which reduces the types of aircraft flown.


SKurj

Offline AKDejaVu

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2000, 09:48:00 AM »
If the aircraft didn't carry a DT, it shouldn't in the MA.

The truth is, aircraft that can carry a DT will always have the advantage over those that can't.  There will always be times when certain aircraft in the arena are less than attractive to fly.  For some aircraft... that will be more often than not.

AKDejaVu

Offline Fishu

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2000, 11:12:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
If the aircraft didn't carry a DT, it shouldn't in the MA.

Right now theres two planes that does not have their rightful drop tanks...
Spitfire Mk.V and Typhoon
im sure about Spit, and tiffies droptanks ive seen discussed in here.. so not so sure of them but.. there was pictures
not sure of russian planes, though, they didn't usually have DTs anyway. (that great russian thinking with the fighters)

Offline jedi

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2000, 11:15:00 AM »
(De-lurking)...

Well, you have to decide what aspects of the airplanes and combat you're trying to "replicate."  The fuel multiplier, IMO, is there more or less just to make drop tanks "work" and provide a reason for their existence, as an added realism feature (a jaded observer might say that it's just to add another feature that other sim doesn't have, just as collisions were added in WB to enable headon attacks that AW didn't have.  But I'll opt for saying that it's another good step in the direction of added realism)  

At any rate, what are the objectives?

--Give "long-range" planes an endurance advantage over "short-range" planes.
--Make certain parts of the map accessible only to certain planes.
--Limit "interceptors" to their real-life mission.
--Force players to manage their fuel supply.
--Force players to load "full tanks" for sorties.
--All of the above?

Some of those work, some don't.  The fuel multiplier limits your "minutes aloft," but unfortunately it doesn't permit you to climb to realistic altitudes if your plane has a small tank, while allowing drop-tank planes to get a "virtual airstart" by expending their "excess" fuel to climb.  Planes with large capacities can, likewise, load small "dogfight loads" and get a weight advantage over their fully-laden adversaries.

Overall, I think fuel management is "good," but realistically, you're not going to have to "worry" about your fuel every 3 minutes on a 30-minute flight.  You'd ALWAYS have "enough" fuel to get to your combat area, strike the target, fight, and egress.  You'd "worry" at the midway point and on the way home, and you'd "manage" as necessary.  In an AH sortie, much of your time is spent fuel-managing, probably too much.

What if, instead of scaling the fuel multiplier, you did some of this with the ENGINE modeling instead?  Once you accept a "suspension of reality" on how long your fuel really lasts (and a Corsair's fuel DID last 5 times longer than a 109s, that's "reality," but when that means an AH Hog can fly for 90 minutes and a 109 for only 18, that's silly) then does it really matter which "performance factor" you're fiddling with.

Suppose you got rid of the fuel multiplier, and then engine fuel consumption were tweaked so that you burned a lot of fuel for climb and combat and VERY little for "cruise"--IF you managed your engine and fuel correctly (and the controls already exist to do both).  Interceptor-types would then have SOME capability to "hunt," but only if they play their hunting altitude against their cruise range.  Scale it with, say, the 109 or Spitfire as a "baseline," and give that plane a "target duration" of, say, 45 minutes, with enough fuel to climb to 20K, fight at full power for 5 minutes, descend and land at idle power, and fly at "cruise power" for the remaining time.  Scale the rest of the PLANES, not the terrain or fuel loads, so that if a plane had an endurance of 5 times what the real Spitfire had, it would have 5 times what the AH Spit has, under the same climb to 20K, fight 5 min, cruise the rest of the time conditions.

Note that I'm not talking about engine OUTPUT here, that stays "real."  But engine fuel consumption would vary from plane to plane. You're talking about duration of flight here.  As long as some "realistic" fuel management takes place, that should be "good enough," without making that the whole focus of your flight.
   


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Offline Dowding

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2000, 11:24:00 AM »
OK Fishu, if the Fuel Burn multiplyer in MA is 2.5, then why does the tiffie in Afrika Corps Scenario have much, much less range? Multiplyer is set to 1.8 in Afrika Corps.

I just thought it was a sensible conclusion to make; 1.0 in MA and 1.8 in Afrika Corps accounts for the decrease in range between the two arenas.

Skurj - surely decreasing the multiplyer in MA (no matter what value it currently stands at) would affect all planes equally? Relatively speaking, the tiffie and la5 would still be short range compared to the other A/C?

Or maybe I'm missing something?

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-07-2000).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline SKurj

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2000, 12:25:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding:

Skurj - surely decreasing the multiplyer in MA (no matter what value it currently stands at) would affect all planes equally? Relatively speaking, the tiffie and la5 would still be short range compared to the other A/C?

Or maybe I'm missing something?

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-07-2000).]

You are correct Dowding, however with a reduction of the multiplier, it would expand the time of flight for those short ranged aircraft.  All I would like to see is useful endurance for those short ranged aircraft in the MA.  If it limits AC types being flown in the MA, then get rid of it.

SKurj


Offline Fishu

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2000, 01:07:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding:
OK Fishu, if the Fuel Burn multiplyer in MA is 2.5, then why does the tiffie in Afrika Corps Scenario have much, much less range? Multiplyer is set to 1.8 in Afrika Corps.

I just thought it was a sensible conclusion to make; 1.0 in MA and 1.8 in Afrika Corps accounts for the decrease in range between the two arenas.

Umm.. can you use quotes? I don't know what you're referring to

funked

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2000, 02:23:00 PM »
Lazs the reason the Luftwaffe wasn't able to oppose Overlord had a lot to do with the thousands of "short-range" fighters of 9th AF and 2nd TAF that were swarming over France for months in advance of the invasion.

Again - "short ranged" RAF fighters were used for a hell of a lot more than field defense.  

The range of RAF, VVS, and Luftwaffe fighters was quite sufficient to cover the battlefield and strike the enemy's rear echelons and supply lines.

Just because they could not fly to the enemy's capital city doesn't make them defensive fighters.  They were most definitely used in offensive roles.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-07-2000).]

UncleBuck

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2000, 02:32:00 PM »
How about having the exceptionally long ranged aircraft limited to non-frontline Fields.  Most long range AC have a relatively slow ROC. This is extenuated when a full fuel load is added.  these planes would only be able to take off from a front line base after being Flown in.  This allows Cripples to use any field, or to stage a sortie from a forward base for deeper penetration.  When these planes are shot down they respawn at the rear base and need to be "ferried" to the forward bases.  This brings the Short range planes or interceptors  into their own.  these planes would be the tactical fighters and the longer ranged planes would be in a better position to do interdiction, or escort missions which is what they were intended.  the USN and IJN AC were long ranged to support efforts in the Pacific and these to could be relegated to rearward bases to simulate the Carriers staying out of harm.  

   I'm a nugget here but just an idea.  This I think would put the planes into the roles they were intended.

                    UncleBuck

Offline Dowding

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2000, 03:24:00 PM »
 
Quote
Dowding, try look other settings next time
it doesn't seem to tell all those settings.. if any.

I should have quoted before, Fishu, but I was being lazy.  

Besides, I just assumed the FuelBurnMult setting is the fuel burn multiplyer and it was set to 1.0 last time I checked. I was setting up an offline map to simulate the Africa Corps setting and noticed how much more range you get in the MA.

Skurj - I see what you mean, but the ammo in La5 doesn't last too long for me (never had more than 5 kills in one sortie) so I usually RTB for ammo rather than fuel. Regarding the tiffie, I fly it quite alot as well as the La5 and I think it should be given drop-tanks (considering they were historically available).

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-07-2000).]
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Offline SKurj

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2000, 10:39:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by UncleBuck:
How about having the exceptionally long ranged aircraft limited to non-frontline Fields.  Most long range AC have a relatively slow ROC. This is extenuated when a full fuel load is added.  these planes would only be able to take off from a front line base after being Flown in.  This allows Cripples to use any field, or to stage a sortie from a forward base for deeper penetration.  When these planes are shot down they respawn at the rear base and need to be "ferried" to the forward bases.  This brings the Short range planes or interceptors  into their own.  these planes would be the tactical fighters and the longer ranged planes would be in a better position to do interdiction, or escort missions which is what they were intended.  the USN and IJN AC were long ranged to support efforts in the Pacific and these to could be relegated to rearward bases to simulate the Carriers staying out of harm.  

   I'm a nugget here but just an idea.  This I think would put the planes into the roles they were intended.

                    UncleBuck


Kinda like this idea...

SKurj

Offline Fishu

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Fuel Multiplier.. is it neccesary? Why? Why not?
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2000, 03:21:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding:
Besides, I just assumed the FuelBurnMult setting is the fuel burn multiplyer and it was set to 1.0 last time I checked. I was setting up an offline map to simulate the Africa Corps setting and noticed how much more range you get in the MA.

I don't believe it shows that setting correctly in MA for others than CMs...
Theres always been either 2 or 2.5* fuel multiplier.
Try look those other settings too, probably find something funny in those too