Setup for January 30, 2004

[Grits]

Originally posted by LtMagee
And, of course, the axis pilots can do the "running" this week.

Why run when you can dive in and get wacked?

[gear]

GEEEZZZZ just give each side  C47 only and he'll still complain.LOL:rofl

[Slash27]

How about the 190 A5 at the rear non-perked? Just a thought. Either way looks like fun Fork.

[artik]

Originally posted by simshell
whenever there is a chance for more spitfires there is allways someone here to ask for it

gush spitdweebs:cool:

Buddy read the original post and what I'm talking about.
The plane equivalent to Spit 5 is 109F not G2
if Typhoon is limited need a plane that can ballance the 109G2

I've asked for unlimited BnZ or Spit 9 that is closer to G2. Spit 5 is really outperformed by 109g2 thats all.
I do not fly Spit mostly but game ballance is more importance IMO.

[Shane]

you want perfect balance... go the MA.

nothing says you can't bnz witha spit5.

[Kweassa]

2xHizookas on the Spitfires are alone are worth more than two G-2s.

 Start from a co-alt situation, and a mistake for 2 seconds will kill a F-4 instantly. Sure it's fast, and sure it can outaccelerate a SpitV. But that's only if the Spit pilot so much sucks in gunnery that can't land a single hit until the F-4 accelerates from about 300 yards to outside 600 yards - and even still, occasionally a sniping shot will knock out something from 800yards.

 On the other hand, mess up in a SpitV and it can just start turning in one direction until the cavalry arrives. Couple that with the horrible single MG151/20s, and more often than not a messy Spit will manage to kill at least one bad guy, before he goes down, however he may suck. When the speed difference is within manageable limits, even a small advantage in turning is of incredible worth. Practically the best turner in the game besides the Zeros and Hurricanes, and a SpitV is a killer.

 AH SpitV will dive and stick with a F-4, G-2, even a 190A-5 unless the dive altitude is large enough. If you have less than 5000ft to dive you won't be able to pull away from a SpitV.

 The SpitV is about 30~33mph slower than the F-4 and 40~43mph slower than the G-2. The difference in speed between a SpitV and a G-2 at altitudes under 15k, is about the same as between a Spit9 and P-51D. Remember what happens in the MA: the P-51D, a plane that dives like hellfire, still gets often caught by a Spit9 in the MA if he isn't already 400mph+, or has too low an altitude to dive.

 Only a shallow, steady, long dive can allow a plane to pull away from any Spitfire.

 Frankly, put two pilots of simular skill level fighting against each other and I'm willing to bet on the side that chooses the SpitV wins almost every engagement, if the planes start at equal terms. Or at least, push the F-4 into some deep shi* until it miraculously pulls away and heads back home.

 The only consistent, and highly successful method of gaining a critical advantage over the SpitV when met in a coalt situation, in a F-4, that I can think of, is by dragging the SpitV to the deck, and then starting a very very long and boring climb up again to build altitude advantage -  I'm not a good pilot, but I've been using 109s for almost two years in AH, and still that's the only 'standard' and 'safe' way!

 The two planes are well matched, but not everybody is as familiar with the 109s as the Spits. Learning to utilize advantages which does not immediately translates itself to maneuvering/tactical advantage, clearly needs quite some experience.


 Compared to that, the A6Ms and Corsairs are a different matter - even a mere 2000ft dive will allow a bad Corsair/Hellcat pilot to pull away outside 600~700 yards. AH Zeros stay solid up to too high speeds, which makes it difficult for Corsairs or Hellcat pilots to turn the tables, but at least it's not gonna get caught - it's 60 miles faster than the Zero at almost all altitudes, nearly 70~80mph faster than the Zero by WEP figures. Heck, even the Bf109G-10 has troubles catching the F4U-1/1D/1C when it starts diving and running away.

 Ki-61 is about the bare minimum that holds enough speed, has good guns, and can dive good enough, that allows people to have a real chance against a Corsair or a Hellcat(which the latter, out performs the Ki-61 in everything). The speed difference between a Corsair and a Ki-61 is about 50mph.

 ..

 The G-2 is indeed, and clearly an overmatch. But really guys , it's NOTHING like what the Axis(especially Japanese) planes have to face regularly and typically.


 ...
 It looks like it'll be a fun setup for both sides - let's not try to ruin the fun.

[artik]

I remember 1948 setup of 109g6 vs Spit5
I have flown with 3x20mm and it is known that 109g2 has better perfomance then g6.

I'm not the best pilot in AH. But it was really clear for me that 109 clearly outperforms Spit V.

It is felt mostly in climb raitio. I clould almost allways be higher then Spit, I could easily outrun and outclimb it. I had 9min of WEP vs 5 min. I had 3xMG151/20mm that not worster then 2xHispano guns. Compression speeds were quite close (and don't tell me stories how Spit 5 can outdive 190A5 at high speed 190 plays with SPit like a cat with a mouse) Only disadvantage I had is turn raito, but flying smart it will not be a problem.

I really flet that I can be allmost safe flying 109 and make my kills. (If not C205 was that was much harder target)

I would suggest add P-47D11 or to make Typhoon unlimited - or very lightly limited probably with 2 perks or make it aviavable over England only thus if fornt will move less Typhoons will be avialable. Probably it is better then bring "spit dweebs" from MA.

[Squire]

"it's NOTHING like what the Axis (especially Japanese) planes have to face regularly and typically."

Oh really, what setup was that?

"2xHizookas on the Spitfires are alone are worth more than two G-2s."

Thats a baseless claim (despite being such a catchy phrase) as is the claim that the MG151/20 somehow doesnt work. Worth two how?

As for the rest of it, hey, if you want to furball in the 109 go ahead, but dont say the two are equal because you choose bad tactics in the 109. Reminds me of the MC202 vs P-40E posts "the P-40 has six fifties" as if that makes all the difference.

Its fair to compare when you assume both fighters are flown properly, to their strengths. A Sopwith Camel can defeat a 190D-9 under some circumstances I guess, but im not sure thats evidence of anything meaningfull.

*Has zip to do with the setup, just responding to above posts*

[Slash27]

But really guys , it's NOTHING like what the Axis(especially Japanese) planes have to face regularly and typically.

Im glad this was brought to light. I think its about time CT staffers add the N1K to PAC set ups that have the Hellcat and Corsair.

[tzr]

Originally posted by Slash27
But really guys , it's NOTHING like what the Axis(especially Japanese) planes have to face regularly and typically.

Im glad this was brought to light. I think its about time CT staffers add the N1K to PAC set ups that have the Hellcat and Corsair.

[Squire]

Amen Slash....lets end the insanity.

[Kweassa]

Oh really, what setup was that?

 Setups with Corsairs, Hellcats, and FM-2 against the A6M5 and the Ki-61?

 Or how about just any clandestine, typical setup inside any CT period?

* I don't think I've ever rode any conventional prop that the Axis can muster that outruns a P-51D or a Tempest in a late '44~'45 timeline.

* Or a P-51B in '43 timeline, and the P-47D-11 in that same time line.

* Any Axis plane outrun the La-7 in the most recent Hungary setup?(Well yeah, D-9s and G-10s outrun the VVS over 15k..but..)

* Now, what outruns the Typhoon in this setup sugested by Fork?

 ...
 
 Yes, I am very aware, that the speed advantage alone doesn't mean anything. However, a combination of certain planes which are available to one side, but unavailable to other side, does mean something. And that, is the source of the 'unbalanced' complaints.


Example:

*In a late '44 ETO setup:  A G-10 or a D-9 may be set up against a very interesting matchup with a P-47D or a 51D, but add in the RAF Spitfire9, and the Luftwaffe is immediately is pressed into a very timid defensive. The 51s chase down everything, and once the plane is caught the Spit9 deals the death blow.

 A coalt fight against a  51D, one can manage. But if even a single Spit9 enters the combat area and the 109 or the 190 is dead.

*A Ki-61 or a N1K2 may hold a good chance in dealing against Corsairs and Hellcats, but throw in a force of FM-2s in that combo. and again, for the Axis the tactical limitations immediately becomes clear.


 .....


 No single plane in the game posesses all the "uber qualities" of out turning, out running, out accelerating, out rolling and etc etc..

 However, a "mix" of planes that combine the planes that are best in at least one category, assembles a "uber combo". Especially, when the combo of speed and turn immediately manifests itself on a tactical level. Would a combo of good rolls and climbing be as much as worthy? I think not.

 So, in how many cases, did the Axis posess the turn+speed combo? How about try naming a single setup which the Allies DIDN'T have the speed+turn combo?

 ...

 The most advantageous setup for the Axis, in terms of A2A combat, that I've ever seen, was Darwin. That's the only case where I remember the Allies not having the speed+turn combo with them. (Can anyone name any other setup?) The single Axis type of A6M2 totally outperformed one US P-40, and very well matched one RAF SpitI. And still, in the setup, Spitfires were the faster. The Axis didn't have any 'combo'. The Darwin felt so advantageous to the Axis because there hardly was any advantage to any side at all. That really says a lot.

 ....

 The Allied "mix" is never, ever missing anything. It always stays the most perfect combo there can be.

 Admit that fact, mate.

 Ofcourse, this isn't my fault, your fault, or anyone else's fault - it's only natural, since the history went that way: two Axis nations against an alliance of all the nations that had the capability to provide advanced planes.

 Nor is it anything a reason to belittle the wonderful and skilled Allied pilots in the CT. Things just turned out that way - I'm sure most of the dedicated Allied pilots would just as much stay Allied, even if things were reversed.

 Also, I can understand the reason why you're so frustrated with this. Sometimes Axis pilots who are as much equally frustrated of fighting a combo of the best performers, go berserk and decide to pick on Allied pilots out of rivalry and steam.

 However, when the can of worms is opened and facts start flying, some things are just undeniable. Advantage in turning is the first immediately applicable tactical advantage in combat. Advantage in speed is the second.

 Allied guys have had both on their side, for a very very long time. Care to deny that fact?

 ...

 So the point of this rambling, is seeing people complain about a G-2, when they even have a '44 version of the Typhoon on their side, makes the other side laugh.

 Look at the combinations again:

Allied: turn, firepower, speed, ordnance
Axis: climb, roll, acceleration

 How would anyone complain with that?

[KG45]

well said.

as a average pilot that always flys axis, the only time i feel any kind of equipment parity is early PAC or Mediterraenian scenarios.

this past hungary scenario was an especially frustrating week of fruitlessly chasing or trying to shake mechanically superior a/c.

that's just the historical facts of life tho, combined with the availible plane set. nothing to be done there.

but it is amusing to still see the allied flyers complain.  

[Panzzer]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Look at the combinations again:

Allied: turn, firepower, speed, ordnance
Axis: climb, roll, acceleration

How would anyone complain with that?

This setup is nicely summarized there.

Mostly it comes down to tactics. Fly with your squad, so everyone should know what to do, and you should be able to engage any enemies you come across, whether you're flying for the Allied or for the Axis. It requires only a bit of planning and coordination. And don't go flying alone. Or, if you do (like most of us do ) be aware of the strenghts and weaknesses of the opposing plane(s)...

Sorry, I don't mean to tell anyone how to fly since I suck anyway, no matter what I'm flying or who I'm flying with.

But this setup is pretty balanced, as have been the others (at least in my opinion) lately in the CT.

Just my opinion or 2 cents. You can whine if you want to.

[tzr]

Now we are back to the question...Historical or "fair"